What's wrong with deterministic crafting?

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Onecardtoomany wrote:

Is there any reason why harvest crafts cannot be converted to drops.

they don't want players to trade them, but for whatever reason can't justify the time to stop players trading them.

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Char1983 wrote:

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Tin_Foil_Hat wrote:

I disagree, there is a clear cut right and wrong here based on the objective facts of the subject.

That's also a communication strategy in an argument: Be so far out on one side of the argument that any "agreement" must be lopsided to your side of the argument.

In any case, can you tell me just one thing:

In what way, if any, is using Harvest crafts (that you have to find) for crafting more or less "free" than using Exalted Orbs (that you have to find) for crafting?

This is such a stupid fucking strawman and im not going to reply to it. You really just cant come up with an actual factual counter argument against mine, its okay.



Lets remove harvest for a league. Since its soo useless and no one uses it and its too expensive people wont miss it right ? Lets remove it for 1 league and lets see how quickly those remarks change. Obviously no one complaining about harvest ever crafted via the og method of actually using your own currency to craft and burning through thousands of low tier and higher tier currency. Maybe its time people experience that.

It is a mild oversimplification, but your position on harvest boils down to two things
1 - How long you want to spend on the league
2 - How much you like gambling.

If you want to spend a long time in the league, and you love gambling, you will hate original Harvest. Original Harvest shortens time to get good gear significantly, and reduces (but not removes) gambling.

If you want to spend less time, and you dislike gambling, you would like original Harvest very much.


The other cases of wanting to spend a long but hating gambling, or wanting to spend less time and liking gambling, who probably have more mixed feelings and could take Harvest or leave it.

You have a few people on both sides who are very vocal who think anyone who disagrees with them are evil/stupid/bad actors, as mentioned earlier in the thread.

But in reality its just different gaming preferences. Neither side is really correct, as Harvest is not good or bad for the game, but it is good or bad for a subset of players they identify with.

Similar to trade arguments, or one-shot preferences, or probably most other gaming discussions.

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trixxar wrote:

It is a mild oversimplification, but your position on harvest boils down to two things
1 - How long you want to spend on the league
2 - How much you like gambling.

If you want to spend a long time in the league, and you love gambling, you will hate original Harvest. Original Harvest shortens time to get good gear significantly, and reduces (but not removes) gambling.

If you want to spend less time, and you dislike gambling, you would like original Harvest very much.


The other cases of wanting to spend a long but hating gambling, or wanting to spend less time and liking gambling, who probably have more mixed feelings and could take Harvest or leave it.

You have a few people on both sides who are very vocal who think anyone who disagrees with them are evil/stupid/bad actors, as mentioned earlier in the thread.

But in reality its just different gaming preferences. Neither side is really correct, as Harvest is not good or bad for the game, but it is good or bad for a subset of players they identify with.

Similar to trade arguments, or one-shot preferences, or probably most other gaming discussions.

Thats literally not what my position boils down to whatsoever and how you even came to that sort of a conclusion is some real mental gymnastics.

What part of me saying "harvest is fine as is" translates into "i like gambling and i like longer periods of time spend in the league" ? Literally nothing i said would translate to that being a conclusion. Harvest is literally the biggest power creep in this game by far so it really just doesnt make any sense how you can say people who like it right now like gambling and spending longer times in league, theres no gambling involved and you progress faster than ever with it.

Harvest is literally unchanged in the aspects that matter outside of the fact you cant easily craft perfect items. Is that really that difficult to comprehend or are we really at the point where we ignore objective facts ?

If you actually play the game and know how to craft youd realize that. Harvest is perfectly fine in its current state and yes, anyone who says it sucks or anything like that is objectively WRONG because the fact of the matter is, mathematically and factually speaking, theres far more arguments that its currently still too strong. GGG has the numbers but those numbers are greatly influenced by content creators which are objectively wrong on the subject. Ive seen many streamers say how "bad" it is simply on the basis they cant craft a perfect item and not on the basis that its functioning exactly as GGG intended it to now (which is making a good item, for cheap or no cost at all to fulfill the role of helping a player progress. And honestly its actually far past that point).

There isnt a difference of "how you play the game" or a "gaming preference". GGG CLEARLY balanced harvest around the facts and numerical statements ive made.

I havent even touched on anything Harvest related outside of general crafting. I havent even touched on how ridiculous the currency conversions are. The fact that you can swap things for better things (whether that be essences, map fragments, currency). What about swapping divination cards or even better, gambling them for a chance of multiplying them ? The div card multiplier rate isnt soo bad that is deters people from using it on the most rare and valuable cards, in fact its highly profitable to utilize it.

People can give you a shit ton of reasons why harvest is objectively good, yet here we are in this thread where the only argument is a bad subjective one, where it literally boils down to "i want this and i cant have it so im not having fun".

I wasn't actually referencing you or talking about you. Its not particularly interesting talking to someone who just rants in walls of text, changes their argument every post, has selective memory, and uses "literally" without knowing what it means...



But since you asked;



"What part of me saying "harvest is fine as is" translates into "i like gambling and i like longer periods of time spend in the league" ?"

Also Tin_foil: "Deterministic crafting ISNT fun."

Non-deterministic crafting is gambling. You can call it RNG as well if you prefer

Tin_foil: "you progress faster than ever with it."

It seems reasonable to say people who progress faster generally conquer the content and leave sooner. I.e. spend less time progressing each league.

To make it REALLY simple, I mean if you had mirror tier gear at the end of day 1, you would quit sooner each league, right? Hence, you understand original Harvest gives you better gear faster, i.e. less time in league. Very basic concept.

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Tin_Foil_Hat wrote:

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Char1983 wrote:

In what way, if any, is using Harvest crafts (that you have to find) for crafting more or less "free" than using Exalted Orbs (that you have to find) for crafting?

This is such a stupid fucking strawman and im not going to reply to it. You really just cant come up with an actual factual counter argument against mine, its okay.

I am just trying to understand you, because I really can't see any difference.

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trixxar wrote:

I wasn't actually referencing you or talking about you. Its not particularly interesting talking to someone who just rants in walls of text, changes their argument every post, has selective memory, and uses "literally" without knowing what it means...



But since you asked;



"What part of me saying "harvest is fine as is" translates into "i like gambling and i like longer periods of time spend in the league" ?"

Also Tin_foil: "Deterministic crafting ISNT fun."

Non-deterministic crafting is gambling. You can call it RNG as well if you prefer

Tin_foil: "you progress faster than ever with it."

It seems reasonable to say people who progress faster generally conquer the content and leave sooner. I.e. spend less time progressing each league.

To make it REALLY simple, I mean if you had mirror tier gear at the end of day 1, you would quit sooner each league, right? Hence, you understand original Harvest gives you better gear faster, i.e. less time in league. Very basic concept.

Why getting better gear faster will lead to less time in league?
Players will try to do more challenges or try different builds when they have ways to get better gear or already have good gears because this is the purpose of playing this game rather than getting nothing after farming again and again.

Also, why the #of losing players will be more than the pervious leagues?
Players will lose their passion for playing if they get shits again and again.
For example, without zana's crafting options, one player may not get even 1 chaos orb after he killed most of monsters in a T16 map. What if this kind of case happened for 10 times?

Make players strong enough to face more difficult end game challenges is the way to let them play more time in a league.
Make players difficult to get strong and lower the rewards will just lose players. THAT'S ALL.

BTW, personally I spent less time in league this league because I progress slower.

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Van318 wrote:

Why getting better gear faster will lead to less time in league?
Players will try to do more challenges or try different builds when they have ways to get better gear or already have good gears because this is the purpose of playing this game rather than getting nothing after farming again and again.

Also, why the #of losing players will be more than the pervious leagues?
Players will lose their passion for playing if they get shits again and again.
For example, without zana's crafting options, one player may not get even 1 chaos orb after he killed most of monsters in a T16 map. What if this kind of case happened for 10 times?

Make players strong enough to face more difficult end game challenges is the way to let them play more time in a league.
Make players difficult to get strong and lower the rewards will just lose players. THAT'S ALL.

I personally actually do play the way you are saying. If map sustain sucks and crafting is lame, like now, I actually do skip leagues.

However, data doesn't lie. As people progress in the league, they leave. By day 20, half are already gone.

Data doesnt lie except youre using steam charts and dont actually have any data to speak of.

You really just linked some stupid ass redditor data graphic to try and prove that your statements have anything to do with player retention lmao.