This game ruined Diablo 3 for me...

"

NotSorry wrote:

Consider yourself belittled then. I take it you only play softcore, where it's okay to just look at only damage because who cares if you die all the time, not like not dying is part of the game or anything...

"

NotSorry wrote:

Consider yourself belittled then. I take it you only play softcore, where it's okay to just look at only damage because who cares if you die all the time, not like not dying is part of the game or anything...

"

RodHull wrote:

"

miljan wrote:

I think no one said that d2 has more viable builds than d3. The thing im traying to say and explain is why d2 didnt had more viable builds, and why d3 has them.
Also, people forget 1 thing. Your all characters now dipend 100% from items becouse of all skills dont have flat dmg, but % of weapon dmg. In d2 there where clases that didnt depend that much from items. Now all clases depend from items. I would personaly liked more that all classes depended less from items, and more from you character development.
Puting choices in items is the only thing now, and it's not better mechanic, or worse, its just diferent, so people like me dont like it.

First up many people have said it has less choice, which infers less builds. If you are now admitting it has more possible viable builds (which you earlier claimed it didn't) then how can you stand by this idea that its worse for customisation??

This argument is now boiling down to what is essentially petty semantics. Now we have totally disproved that there is less choice in D3, all your arguments (not just you) have switched from 'theres less choice... period' - to - 'the way you make those choices is different therefor I dont like it' which is just odd.

I mean really does it not seems a tad strange to prefer a system you know is less flexible cause it allows you to place 2 stat points every level even though there is only ever 1 best place to put those based on your build, to a system that allows you to enhance and change your stats as your build is fine tuned and as you find better gear.

Also please explain if you dont like how D3 is linking stat points to items, why is it ok for POE to link ALL skill choices and support gems to items?? Cause to me thats a total contradiction.

"

thepmrc wrote:

@RodHull

Love the D3 skill system or hate it, its all the same when its over. The game builds a character for you based on the fact that you never have to choose to obtain a new skill and you never have to make any choices outside of gear choices. Leveling up simply grants you a new skill or skill slot of the games choice and assigns set attribute points chosen by the game designers. This is why I feel the game builds the character for you, because it does essentially.

I very much dislike MMOs, this is probably the reason why I am such a D3 hater. I don't like the concept of building the game around the 'end game', I believe in a good game all around. I would much prefer the 'grinding the two or three worthwhile areas of the game ad infinitum' to forcing group play to clear some retarded 'end game' content to be honest, especially if this is the only way to acquire good gear.

You just dont get it do you, you say 'you never have to make any choices outside of gear choices' flippantly like its some really minor mechanic, when in fact the stuff you can do in D3 with itemisation is staggering. You can augment and change tons of stuff based on your gear, and you know it being a loot game and all thats what its about, finding gear. If I want deep character development and meaningful stat building Ill go play Fallout 2 or numerous other old school proper RPGs. Lets not be silly, D3 and POE are action loot games, your character is as much about your loot as it is about its stats. In fact the loot is the MAIN focus of the game, GGG realised this and made it so your skill choices are linked to your loot. Blizzard have merely done the exact same thing but with stat points.

As for this ridiculous skills argument, it makes me wonder did you ever play D2?? Any D2 player will know that at the upper ends of Hell level (85+) you used maybe 1 or 2 skills as the main combat classes, the only ones who used more was the necro and assasin but even then it was like 3 or 4 tops. Why would I want a system that forces you to ignore 90% of the skills in the game and just focus on the worthwhile ones? And before you say thats about choice, thats bull****. At Hell level you couldn't use lower tier skills, they just weren't effective. Skeletons being a prime example, even buffed to the max and even after the synergy patch they got wiped out in seconds on Hell, instead every necro used golems.

And that raises another issue, even Blizz realised their skill system was awful, thats why they tried to add the whole synergy thing, but even that didn't stop the best choice being super specialising in 1 or 2 skills. And your final statement about end game amuses me. Loot games are about playing feasibly forever, or until you grow tired of the game, there is no finish, no end goal. As such games like D2 left you with just a few worthwhile enemies and areas to farm, I had 2 characters at 99 (back in the day not long afer LOD released) and farming Baal endlessly and a few areas in act 5 got REALLY boring.

In all I played Hell Act5 about 90% more than any other difficulty or act put together. Now you might be happy to forgo a worthwhile long term experience to gain a bit more fun on the brief journey to the cap, but let me assure you, your in a minority. Forget MMOs, its nothing to do with them. D3 is a solo game, at no stage has Blizz ever said its going to make raids like WOW, and in fact this paranoid idea you raise is whats behind alot of D3 hate. Its game snobs/elitists who hate WOW and are convinced D3 is going to be a WOW clone despite no evidence whatsoever to support that fear. For the record I detest WOW have never even played it, but the fact you think D3 will have raids is funny. Oh and you might want to check out the extensive endgame discussions GGG have had if you dont want a game built around endgame... just sayin

"

Eviathluc wrote:

What you're really saying here is that damage optimization is more important than anything else in your opinion. Each class has only one build for you. When push comes to shove, you'd throw playstyle under the bus.

It does, this is an arpg, not a deep rpg like Fallout 2 or Skyrim. Its not like there are multiple ways to attack the game or progress. Your progress is about how efficiently and fast you can wipe out groups of monsters... end of story

Suggesting otherwise is silly and belittles all of us.

"

WAWAMELONS wrote:

"

RodHull wrote:

"

miljan wrote:

I think no one said that d2 has more viable builds than d3. The thing im traying to say and explain is why d2 didnt had more viable builds, and why d3 has them.
Also, people forget 1 thing. Your all characters now dipend 100% from items becouse of all skills dont have flat dmg, but % of weapon dmg. In d2 there where clases that didnt depend that much from items. Now all clases depend from items. I would personaly liked more that all classes depended less from items, and more from you character development.
Puting choices in items is the only thing now, and it's not better mechanic, or worse, its just diferent, so people like me dont like it.

First up many people have said it has less choice, which infers less builds. If you are now admitting it has more possible viable builds (which you earlier claimed it didn't) then how can you stand by this idea that its worse for customisation??

This argument is now boiling down to what is essentially petty semantics. Now we have totally disproved that there is less choice in D3, all your arguments (not just you) have switched from 'theres less choice... period' - to - 'the way you make those choices is different therefor I dont like it' which is just odd.

I mean really does it not seems a tad strange to prefer a system you know is less flexible cause it allows you to place 2 stat points every level even though there is only ever 1 best place to put those based on your build, to a system that allows you to enhance and change your stats as your build is fine tuned and as you find better gear.

Also please explain if you dont like how D3 is linking stat points to items, why is it ok for POE to link ALL skill choices and support gems to items?? Cause to me thats a total contradiction.

"

thepmrc wrote:

@RodHull

Love the D3 skill system or hate it, its all the same when its over. The game builds a character for you based on the fact that you never have to choose to obtain a new skill and you never have to make any choices outside of gear choices. Leveling up simply grants you a new skill or skill slot of the games choice and assigns set attribute points chosen by the game designers. This is why I feel the game builds the character for you, because it does essentially.

I very much dislike MMOs, this is probably the reason why I am such a D3 hater. I don't like the concept of building the game around the 'end game', I believe in a good game all around. I would much prefer the 'grinding the two or three worthwhile areas of the game ad infinitum' to forcing group play to clear some retarded 'end game' content to be honest, especially if this is the only way to acquire good gear.

You just dont get it do you, you say 'you never have to make any choices outside of gear choices' flippantly like its some really minor mechanic, when in fact the stuff you can do in D3 with itemisation is staggering. You can augment and change tons of stuff based on your gear, and you know it being a loot game and all thats what its about, finding gear. If I want deep character development and meaningful stat building Ill go play Fallout 2 or numerous other old school proper RPGs. Lets not be silly, D3 and POE are action loot games, your character is as much about your loot as it is about its stats. In fact the loot is the MAIN focus of the game, GGG realised this and made it so your skill choices are linked to your loot. Blizzard have merely done the exact same thing but with stat points.

As for this ridiculous skills argument, it makes me wonder did you ever play D2?? Any D2 player will know that at the upper ends of Hell level (85+) you used maybe 1 or 2 skills as the main combat classes, the only ones who used more was the necro and assasin but even then it was like 3 or 4 tops. Why would I want a system that forces you to ignore 90% of the skills in the game and just focus on the worthwhile ones? And before you say thats about choice, thats bull****. At Hell level you couldn't use lower tier skills, they just weren't effective. Skeletons being a prime example, even buffed to the max and even after the synergy patch they got wiped out in seconds on Hell, instead every necro used golems.

And that raises another issue, even Blizz realised their skill system was awful, thats why they tried to add the whole synergy thing, but even that didn't stop the best choice being super specialising in 1 or 2 skills. And your final statement about end game amuses me. Loot games are about playing feasibly forever, or until you grow tired of the game, there is no finish, no end goal. As such games like D2 left you with just a few worthwhile enemies and areas to farm, I had 2 characters at 99 (back in the day not long afer LOD released) and farming Baal endlessly and a few areas in act 5 got REALLY boring.

In all I played Hell Act5 about 90% more than any other difficulty or act put together. Now you might be happy to forgo a worthwhile long term experience to gain a bit more fun on the brief journey to the cap, but let me assure you, your in a minority. Forget MMOs, its nothing to do with them. D3 is a solo game, at no stage has Blizz ever said its going to make raids like WOW, and in fact this paranoid idea you raise is whats behind alot of D3 hate. Its game snobs/elitists who hate WOW and are convinced D3 is going to be a WOW clone despite no evidence whatsoever to support that fear. For the record I detest WOW have never even played it, but the fact you think D3 will have raids is funny. Oh and you might want to check out the extensive endgame discussions GGG have had if you dont want a game built around endgame... just sayin

"

Eviathluc wrote:

What you're really saying here is that damage optimization is more important than anything else in your opinion. Each class has only one build for you. When push comes to shove, you'd throw playstyle under the bus.

It does, this is an arpg, not a deep rpg like Fallout 2 or Skyrim. Its not like there are multiple ways to attack the game or progress. Your progress is about how efficiently and fast you can wipe out groups of monsters... end of story

Suggesting otherwise is silly and belittles all of us.

This post above absolutely annihilated all the rabid D3 haters in this thread. Thanks for taking the time to type it out. Most of these people have completely forgotten how D2 was and their ignorance is astounding.

It's also telling that none of them replied to RodHull's points, only selectively choosing one sentence to reply to to and ignoring the entire post that destroyed their argument.

"

johnnysd wrote:

His argument for the most part is complete crap. First of all he has NO IDEA if you will actually use more than 1 or 2 skills at a time in the higher difficulties of D3

Second, his and every other D3 game systems defenders argument comes down to two points:

1. The skill system was flawed in D2 and could allow non-viable builds, and the game needs to remove that possibility and scrap the skill system

2. Builds were cookie-cutter and people just looked them up online so it should be scrapped since it only gives the illusion of choice and a "compelliny" choice would be choosing the 6 skills I want to use (Blizzard spin)

Both of these arguments to me are extremely weak. Just because the skill system was flawed in D2 does not mean that having a true skill system to build a customized character is not a desirable thing. Despite what he thinks a large segment of the ARPG marketplace enjoy the process of building a character and feel that it is a core portion of the ARPG gameplay-as important as loot. Building a character has choice and consequence. Choosing 6 skills when you can swap at will. regardless of how many potential builds there are IS NOT a compelling system to many players. In fact it is trite and boring.

In terms of the cookie cutter online thing, it is the same as saying a puzzle book should never be published and is not compelling because someone can look up the answer. I never looked up a build in D2 and building unique characters and figuring out the build I wanted to complete hell in was a lot of fun and a good challenge.

Also, from what I have read and seen myself in beta itemization in D3 is very trivialized. ALL SKILLS scale from weapon DPS which to me is completely gamebreaking.

D3 is polarizing and no real correct answer. If you want loot grinding and an all out emphasis on action with no choice or consequence, no chance to make a critical mistke, no role playing elements and simplified itemization then D3 is for you. If you want a deeper game, with choice and consequence and a role playing core then you will likely dislike D3 as I do

"

First up many people have said it has less choice, which infers less builds. If you are now admitting it has more possible viable builds (which you earlier claimed it didn't) then how can you stand by this idea that its worse for customisation??

This argument is now boiling down to what is essentially petty semantics. Now we have totally disproved that there is less choice in D3, all your arguments (not just you) have switched from 'theres less choice... period' - to - 'the way you make those choices is different therefor I dont like it' which is just odd.

I mean really does it not seems a tad strange to prefer a system you know is less flexible cause it allows you to place 2 stat points every level even though there is only ever 1 best place to put those based on your build, to a system that allows you to enhance and change your stats as your build is fine tuned and as you find better gear.

"

Sickness wrote:

"

miljan wrote:

Also, people forget 1 thing. Your all characters now dipend 100% from items becouse of all skills dont have flat dmg, but % of weapon dmg. In d2 there where clases that didnt depend that much from items. Now all clases depend from items. I would personaly liked more that all classes depended less from items, and more from you character development.

That all classes depend on items is far better than that some classes depends on items while some don't.

"

RodHull wrote:

First up many people have said it has less choice, which infers less builds. If you are now admitting it has more possible viable builds (which you earlier claimed it didn't) then how can you stand by this idea that its worse for customisation??

"

RodHull wrote:

This argument is now boiling down to what is essentially petty semantics. Now we have totally disproved that there is less choice in D3, all your arguments (not just you) have switched from 'theres less choice... period' - to - 'the way you make those choices is different therefor I dont like it' which is just odd.

"

RodHull wrote:

I mean really does it not seems a tad strange to prefer a system you know is less flexible cause it allows you to place 2 stat points every level even though there is only ever 1 best place to put those based on your build, to a system that allows you to enhance and change your stats as your build is fine tuned and as you find better gear.

"

RodHull wrote:

Also please explain if you dont like how D3 is linking stat points to items, why is it ok for POE to link ALL skill choices and support gems to items?? Cause to me thats a total contradiction.