This game ruined Diablo 3 for me...

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thepmrc wrote:

@RodHull

Love the D3 skill system or hate it, its all the same when its over. The game builds a character for you based on the fact that you never have to choose to obtain a new skill and you never have to make any choices outside of gear choices. Leveling up simply grants you a new skill or skill slot of the games choice and assigns set attribute points chosen by the game designers. This is why I feel the game builds the character for you, because it does essentially.

I very much dislike MMOs, this is probably the reason why I am such a D3 hater. I don't like the concept of building the game around the 'end game', I believe in a good game all around. I would much prefer the 'grinding the two or three worthwhile areas of the game ad infinitum' to forcing group play to clear some retarded 'end game' content to be honest, especially if this is the only way to acquire good gear.

1) The difference between having all the skills available and having to choose is a respec system. Literally. If D3 force you to choose 6 skills then 1 rune for each skill over the course of 60 levels would it suddenly be better because you had to "choose" and will now have to jump trough hoops if you disliked your choice? Maybe in the eyes of some fraction of the playerbase. But the existence of having respecs in ANY game basically nullifies skill trees in general. If you want to specialize in a skill you get items that accentuate that skill (which is just as much a permanent choice) in D3 rather than having to "put a point in". This is poorly conveyed in the beta, but according to ALL dev input this is what is intended.

2) Endgame content for D3 is... D3. Literally it's access to all the quests. It is no different from the post game content of D2 in scope. The difference is that once you hit max level you can still progress effectively in a character sense (once you hit 99 in D2 there wasn't REALLY anything to do). Most D2 sorc builds could beat Hell naked (with some work) by around level 60-70. After you put 20 points in your main skill there really was no discernible progression from a character standpoint and items were generally either good or useless (either a high grade unique or ANYTHING else).

At the end of the day D3 is designed to let you enjoy levelling and trying new skills without needing to jump through hoops, while also laying the groundwork for the "stats" you want (in the form of specialized equipment) when you get into Inferno mode to begin perfecting your character.

@Auct

Ya, I get it you're a fanboy. I don't care.

I have disagreed enough. Restate your opinion as much as you want, it will not change my feelings just like it didn't when D3 developers said the same exact things. They oversimplified the skill system in my opinion and no amount of rehashing their words will make me change my mind. This last part is why I call you a fan boy, you restate the developers statements about their system as if it is the only absolute truth. They think its great because they developed it... just like I think my bands music is great cuz we wrote it... doesn't mean anyone else will like it.

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thepmrc wrote:

@Auct

Ya, I get it your a fanboy. I don't care.

If I was a fanboy I wouldn't bother to play PoE. Because if I was afanboy I'd have rabid hate for anything but blizzard.

I'm trying to explain what the damn differences are, and how they relate. I'm also trying to dispel the "skill points are inherently superior" thinking that people have. Once you start handing out respecs (regardless of how hard the hoops are to jump through) choice starts losing meaning. If PoE wanted to be a TRUE follower of D2 they'd never have added orbs of regret.

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thepmrc wrote:

@Auct

Ya, I get it your a fanboy. I don't care.

Come on, that's weak.
If you disagree, just do so. It's perfectly fine to have a different opinion and to be vocal about it, but seriously what does the above add to the conversation?

Most of the complaints seem to boil down to having essentially free respecs in D3. Which is funny, since quite a few people complain about NOT having an easily obtained repec option in PoE.

I can understand people wanting to pick specific builds and running with it for the life of the character. In D2 and PoE I loved the Zookeeper builds. I adore having an army of minions running amuck and doing my bidding. Did I like Hell in D2 with my build? Not so much. Works pretty well in PoE though.

I think were going to see a lot of builds in D3 as well. As people find specific gear to boost certain damage types, the cookie cutters will be there, fear not. The only difference is when the more than viable builds are found, people will simply switch without rolling a new character.

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Autocthon wrote:

D3 has minimal difference between primary offensive skills.

Yes. That's a problem. Graphically-swapped Roflstomp has the same function and plays the same way.

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Autocthon wrote:

I never had any problem with the "either have it or not" mentality of skill design. That very rarely has true balance problems, nor have I ever argued AGAINST just having a skill switch cooldow like D3.

Didn't say you did. I was highlighting that you now basically have a skill list(it's not a tree without branching) and get 6 points to use, for all intents and purposes. The 6 skill slots are every bit as limiting as the skill tree in D2 (if not moreso), and
the skill switch CD enforces that limitation. Skill "trees" haven't been removed, just disguised.

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Autocthon wrote:

A choice is not a choice if there is a mathematical best option, a challenge shouldn't be a challenge just because you never bothered to look up the best thing to do with your skillpoints.

What you're really saying here is that damage optimization is more important than anything else in your opinion. Each class has only one build for you. When push comes to shove, you'd throw playstyle under the bus.

On a more personal note: Yes I do enjoy my non-respec elitism. It was a terrible idea to add respecs from the beginning unless you like to get in trouble instead of thinking ahead.

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miljan wrote:

Also, people forget 1 thing. Your all characters now dipend 100% from items becouse of all skills dont have flat dmg, but % of weapon dmg. In d2 there where clases that didnt depend that much from items. Now all clases depend from items. I would personaly liked more that all classes depended less from items, and more from you character development.

That all classes depend on items is far better than that some classes depends on items while some don't.

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miljan wrote:

I think no one said that d2 has more viable builds than d3. The thing im traying to say and explain is why d2 didnt had more viable builds, and why d3 has them.
Also, people forget 1 thing. Your all characters now dipend 100% from items becouse of all skills dont have flat dmg, but % of weapon dmg. In d2 there where clases that didnt depend that much from items. Now all clases depend from items. I would personaly liked more that all classes depended less from items, and more from you character development.
Puting choices in items is the only thing now, and it's not better mechanic, or worse, its just diferent, so people like me dont like it.

First up many people have said it has less choice, which infers less builds. If you are now admitting it has more possible viable builds (which you earlier claimed it didn't) then how can you stand by this idea that its worse for customisation??

This argument is now boiling down to what is essentially petty semantics. Now we have totally disproved that there is less choice in D3, all your arguments (not just you) have switched from 'theres less choice... period' - to - 'the way you make those choices is different therefor I dont like it' which is just odd.

I mean really does it not seems a tad strange to prefer a system you know is less flexible cause it allows you to place 2 stat points every level even though there is only ever 1 best place to put those based on your build, to a system that allows you to enhance and change your stats as your build is fine tuned and as you find better gear.

Also please explain if you dont like how D3 is linking stat points to items, why is it ok for POE to link ALL skill choices and support gems to items?? Cause to me thats a total contradiction.

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thepmrc wrote:

@RodHull

Love the D3 skill system or hate it, its all the same when its over. The game builds a character for you based on the fact that you never have to choose to obtain a new skill and you never have to make any choices outside of gear choices. Leveling up simply grants you a new skill or skill slot of the games choice and assigns set attribute points chosen by the game designers. This is why I feel the game builds the character for you, because it does essentially.

I very much dislike MMOs, this is probably the reason why I am such a D3 hater. I don't like the concept of building the game around the 'end game', I believe in a good game all around. I would much prefer the 'grinding the two or three worthwhile areas of the game ad infinitum' to forcing group play to clear some retarded 'end game' content to be honest, especially if this is the only way to acquire good gear.

You just dont get it do you, you say 'you never have to make any choices outside of gear choices' flippantly like its some really minor mechanic, when in fact the stuff you can do in D3 with itemisation is staggering. You can augment and change tons of stuff based on your gear, and you know it being a loot game and all thats what its about, finding gear. If I want deep character development and meaningful stat building Ill go play Fallout 2 or numerous other old school proper RPGs. Lets not be silly, D3 and POE are action loot games, your character is as much about your loot as it is about its stats. In fact the loot is the MAIN focus of the game, GGG realised this and made it so your skill choices are linked to your loot. Blizzard have merely done the exact same thing but with stat points.

As for this ridiculous skills argument, it makes me wonder did you ever play D2?? Any D2 player will know that at the upper ends of Hell level (85+) you used maybe 1 or 2 skills as the main combat classes, the only ones who used more was the necro and assasin but even then it was like 3 or 4 tops. Why would I want a system that forces you to ignore 90% of the skills in the game and just focus on the worthwhile ones? And before you say thats about choice, thats bull****. At Hell level you couldn't use lower tier skills, they just weren't effective. Skeletons being a prime example, even buffed to the max and even after the synergy patch they got wiped out in seconds on Hell, instead every necro used golems.

And that raises another issue, even Blizz realised their skill system was awful, thats why they tried to add the whole synergy thing, but even that didn't stop the best choice being super specialising in 1 or 2 skills. And your final statement about end game amuses me. Loot games are about playing feasibly forever, or until you grow tired of the game, there is no finish, no end goal. As such games like D2 left you with just a few worthwhile enemies and areas to farm, I had 2 characters at 99 (back in the day not long afer LOD released) and farming Baal endlessly and a few areas in act 5 got REALLY boring.

In all I played Hell Act5 about 90% more than any other difficulty or act put together. Now you might be happy to forgo a worthwhile long term experience to gain a bit more fun on the brief journey to the cap, but let me assure you, your in a minority. Forget MMOs, its nothing to do with them. D3 is a solo game, at no stage has Blizz ever said its going to make raids like WOW, and in fact this paranoid idea you raise is whats behind alot of D3 hate. Its game snobs/elitists who hate WOW and are convinced D3 is going to be a WOW clone despite no evidence whatsoever to support that fear. For the record I detest WOW have never even played it, but the fact you think D3 will have raids is funny. Oh and you might want to check out the extensive endgame discussions GGG have had if you dont want a game built around endgame... just sayin

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Eviathluc wrote:

What you're really saying here is that damage optimization is more important than anything else in your opinion. Each class has only one build for you. When push comes to shove, you'd throw playstyle under the bus.

It does, this is an arpg, not a deep rpg like Fallout 2 or Skyrim. Its not like there are multiple ways to attack the game or progress. Your progress is about how efficiently and fast you can wipe out groups of monsters... end of story

Suggesting otherwise is silly and belittles all of us.

Consider yourself belittled then. I take it you only play softcore, where it's okay to just look at only damage because who cares if you die all the time, not like not dying is part of the game or anything...

I think each class probably has enough 'oh crap' skills to stay alive. It's really hard to say without having seen anything other than an hour or two worth of beta though.

What I did find disappointing in the beta though was the weapon damage linked to skill damage.

I made my first character a wizard, really wanted to see what they had done. So I went running around with my starter wand for the first 5 levels or so. Things starting getting harder and harder to kill....so I swap out the wand for a higher dps AXE and suddenly my spells hit for more.

I was sad.

My elemental master of the universe who had learned the secrets of spellcasting from the ancient Gods was suddenly doing more with his magic missile because he had equipped a sharper axe.

Then I killed something and it dropped lots of loot and I was happy again.

Both games are good. And I will probably play through both of them.
However I ordered Diablo 3 Collector's Edition as soon as I tried open beta last weekend.
I'm also gonna try the new Titan Quest game (Dawn something or something like that).
Honestly I think Diablo 3 looks better than PoE. Sure graphics are not up to date, but Blizzard have some amazing animation artists. And from what I've seen of 1/3rd of Act 1, Diablo 3 got way cooler weapon models than anything PoE has to offer in its 2 acts.
Then again, I might be a bit spoiled, I was there when Diablo 1 was released and played it quite a bit, as well as Diablo 2, those games mean a lot to me.