This game ruined Diablo 3 for me...

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AgentDave wrote:

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miljan wrote:

Hmm, I wonder did you read my post good, or do you agree with me?
All you said is correct, and what did I said? 30 unbalance skill will not become balanced becouse you remove skill point system. They will stay unbalanced. Some people think the skill points per se are the problem of unbalnced skills.

Man... I read your post as well as I could.

That is nowhere near what you said. I think the language barrier on this conversation is 20' high.

Your post (above) is meaningless. You're saying "well, if the skills are unbalanced, then you haven't fixed anything." Balance of the skills created has nothing to do with the skill system used. That's like saying "If I die of in a car accident, what does it matter if I smoke?" Well, the two things have very little to do with each other... Hardly good logical reason to smoke, right?

Correct, agree with you 100%, that was one of a things I was discussing with Autocthon, or I hope i did. He is saying (if I understood him good) that system with skill points can not have balanced skills ever, and that balance comes from skill system per se.

I have a feeling that I am crapy in english.

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Autocthon wrote:

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thepmrc wrote:

As I have stated before I reserve my final judgment of D3 until I play full release, but my initial feeling is that leveling up is completely lackluster. I much prefer the design strategy used by GGG, it puts the choices/decisions in the hands of the player. This affords maximum enjoyment for me as a player. Others might prefer that their character is built for them as they level. To each their own, I don't care.

Leveling up should get more entertaining as you get more and more skills to try out.

Of course Blizzard devs have STATED that th part they want players to focus on is the post-60 customization. That's when the most "customizing" options begin to come into play and where the major "build permenence" mechanic is situated in the form of nephalem's valor.

I will reiterate as I have said before that I do ot believe that D3 is the absolute BEST system, but it uses a system that interacts well with the MAIN gameplay focus of ARPG games (LOOT) and provides a wider degree of post-game replayability.

Yeah, I kinda assumed they would be gearing it around 'end-game'. That will be interesting as Diablo has never had an endgame, I have a feeling I will not like it.

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miljan wrote:

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AgentDave wrote:

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miljan wrote:

Hmm, I wonder did you read my post good, or do you agree with me?
All you said is correct, and what did I said? 30 unbalance skill will not become balanced becouse you remove skill point system. They will stay unbalanced. Some people think the skill points per se are the problem of unbalnced skills.

Man... I read your post as well as I could.

That is nowhere near what you said. I think the language barrier on this conversation is 20' high.

Your post (above) is meaningless. You're saying "well, if the skills are unbalanced, then you haven't fixed anything." Balance of the skills created has nothing to do with the skill system used. That's like saying "If I die of in a car accident, what does it matter if I smoke?" Well, the two things have very little to do with each other... Hardly good logical reason to smoke, right?

Correct, agree with you 100%, that was one of a things I was discussing with Autocthon, or I hope i did. He is saying (if I understood him good) that system with skill points can not have balanced skills ever, and that balance comes from skill system per se.

I have a feeling that I am crapy in english.

I believe what you are trying to say is that if you take the same pile of 20 unbalanced skills and put them in either system (skill points / or no skill points) it is equally unbalanced. Simply removing skill points does not inherently increase balance of skills, it just makes it much easier on the developers to balance the skills as there is only one skill level of each skill. If the new Blizz developers actually knew what they were doing with D2 code they may have been able to fix some of the skill problems in D2 and create a lot more viability within the skill trees. Unfortunately, they had no idea what they were doing and took a year to implement a respec, lol.

Nothing is balanced when your pwned by AMEX

GG

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thepmrc wrote:

As I have stated before I reserve my final judgment of D3 until I play full release, but my initial feeling is that leveling up is completely lackluster. I much prefer the design strategy used by GGG, it puts the choices/decisions in the hands of the player. This affords maximum enjoyment for me as a player. Others might prefer that their character is built for them as they level. To each their own, I don't care.

But they/we have illustrated in great detail that the new gems system replaces stat assignment, and that the skill point system is now redundant its all about runes. How on any planet in the universe is that less or worse than D2??

D2 had what 2 maybe 3 worthwhile builds per class, D3 will likely have 5 to 10 times as many as that per class, how is that worse?? How does the current system 'build a character for you' its this nonsense that people parrot without grasping the new system that leads to views like the ones in this thread. People presume cause your not picking 2 stats to raise per level that its building it for you, neglecting the myriad of new ways to augment your build/toon in much more meaningful ways... I mean if you get off on raising your endurance endlessly knock yourself out, but ill take the new system any day.

All they've done is removed the redundant ability to put a point or two into a stat every level and added the ability to augment your stats with the gear you wear. Indeed it is similar in its approach (if not the result) to what GGG have done with skill gems. They removed the need to select or buy skills every level and instead have made your skills attached to your gear... and yet here are people like miljan saying how putting choices into gear is bad... go figure

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thepmrc wrote:

Yeah, I kinda assumed they would be gearing it around 'end-game'. That will be interesting as Diablo has never had an endgame, I have a feeling I will not like it.

Diablo 2 didn't have an endgame in the MMO sense of the word, but grinding the two or three worthwhile areas of the game ad infinitum is surely not something you'd like to see return?

Again just like GGG they have realised that most players will spend most of their time at the level cap, making this experience the best it can be to the detriment of the earlier levelling process is preferable to the reverse (which is what D2 did)

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miljan wrote:

Lol. I better not start whats all wrong in your post.

Please do, im dying to here what tangent you fly off on now or what point you deliberately choose to ignore... please for me try to show me how wrong I am. I could do with a laugh...

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RodHull wrote:

But they/we have illustrated in great detail that the new gems system replaces stat assignment, and that the skill point system is now redundant its all about runes. How on any planet in the universe is that less or worse than D2??

D2 had what 2 maybe 3 worthwhile builds per class, D3 will likely have 5 to 10 times as many as that per class, how is that worse??

All they've done is removed the redundant ability to put a point or two into a stat every level and added the ability to augment your stats with the gear you wear. Indeed it is similar in its approach (if not the result) to what GGG have done with skill gems. They removed the need to select or buy skills every level and instead have made your skills attached to your gear... and yet here are people like miljan saying how putting choices into gear is bad... go figure

I think no one said that d2 has more viable builds than d3. The thing im traying to say and explain is why d2 didnt had more viable builds, and why d3 has them.
Also, people forget 1 thing. Your all characters now dipend 100% from items becouse of all skills dont have flat dmg, but % of weapon dmg. In d2 there where clases that didnt depend that much from items. Now all clases depend from items. I would personaly liked more that all classes depended less from items, and more from you character development.
Puting choices in items is the only thing now, and it's not better mechanic, or worse, its just diferent, so people like me dont like it.

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thepmrc wrote:

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Autocthon wrote:

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thepmrc wrote:

As I have stated before I reserve my final judgment of D3 until I play full release, but my initial feeling is that leveling up is completely lackluster. I much prefer the design strategy used by GGG, it puts the choices/decisions in the hands of the player. This affords maximum enjoyment for me as a player. Others might prefer that their character is built for them as they level. To each their own, I don't care.

Leveling up should get more entertaining as you get more and more skills to try out.

Of course Blizzard devs have STATED that th part they want players to focus on is the post-60 customization. That's when the most "customizing" options begin to come into play and where the major "build permenence" mechanic is situated in the form of nephalem's valor.

I will reiterate as I have said before that I do ot believe that D3 is the absolute BEST system, but it uses a system that interacts well with the MAIN gameplay focus of ARPG games (LOOT) and provides a wider degree of post-game replayability.

Yeah, I kinda assumed they would be gearing it around 'end-game'. That will be interesting as Diablo has never had an endgame, I have a feeling I will not like it.

Wel since gear in D3 roughly equates with what level was in D2 it's REALLY all about whether you care more about linear progression (leveling a skill system) or non-linear progression (fnding that ONE perfect item).

Consider that in D3 all hints have pointed to unique weapons having not only FIXED modifiers but also truly ramdom modifiers, and that Blizzard WANTS you to enable to have fun searching on the perfect item to augment the skills you prefer to use (That unique sword with +20% wizard spell damage, +10% crit chance, and +100% bonus damage to Spectral Blade for hypothetical instance). In general if you would like PoE at max level searching for items you SHOULD like D3. The points on the spectrum where you can customize are differe but the end result is the same: A character that is YOURS and nobody can say it isn't. Hell a character in D3 would be MORE unique simply because in order to be copied it would require another player to use not only the same skills as you but also tre exact same equipment and gem combos. Which will be a VERY difficult thing to do.

What I expect (and hope for.) from D3 is conditionality - Skills which are balanced on multiple axii (Axises?) - For example, there could be a "best" skill for boss killing, let's say one which does 50% weapon damage to a single target, +10% damage for each subsequent hit on the same target with the same skill, up to a (high) limit. But, then, if there is another skill which does 100% weapon damage in a huge AOE, for a very low resource cost, do you take the spell to mow down the boss (Which will make the mobs getting to him hard.) or the spell to make the path to the boss easy, but the boss himself take a long time and be more challenging, or a 3rd spell that's a little of both (say, 150% weapon damage to a single target, and 50% weapon damage to surrounding targets.)

That's a simplication, of course, because there are 6 spell slots, so you'll never have a binary choice like that (except perhaps with runes - I never played with elective mode, can you have, say, the Jar of Spiders with the leaping spiders, and have it again with the spider queen? IF not, you can set up that situation, by making the 3 spells above variations of the same base spell...)

@RodHull

Love the D3 skill system or hate it, its all the same when its over. The game builds a character for you based on the fact that you never have to choose to obtain a new skill and you never have to make any choices outside of gear choices. Leveling up simply grants you a new skill or skill slot of the games choice and assigns set attribute points chosen by the game designers. This is why I feel the game builds the character for you, because it does essentially.

I very much dislike MMOs, this is probably the reason why I am such a D3 hater. I don't like the concept of building the game around the 'end game', I believe in a good game all around. I would much prefer the 'grinding the two or three worthwhile areas of the game ad infinitum' to forcing group play to clear some retarded 'end game' content to be honest, especially if this is the only way to acquire good gear.