This game ruined Diablo 3 for me...

want to provide this link since you guys seems to be serious about this and not trolling :P

http://us.battle.net/d3/en/forum/topic/3811455085?page=1

this explains the stats in D2 and D3. the guy is super, super thorough and detailed.

if that doesn't change your mind, nothing well :P you are a lost cause, and that will be fact not opinion.

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boozee wrote:

want to provide this link since you guys seems to be serious about this and not trolling :P

http://us.battle.net/d3/en/forum/topic/3811455085?page=1

this explains the stats in D2 and D3. the guy is super, super thorough and detailed.

if that doesn't change your mind, nothing well :P you are a lost cause, and that will be fact not opinion.

Pretty sure there's been like two similar such links. In general these guys are too hung up on a need for "choice" that they don't even realize that the new system offers just as many choices. Just laterally instead of vertically.

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boozee wrote:

want to provide this link since you guys seems to be serious about this and not trolling :P

http://us.battle.net/d3/en/forum/topic/3811455085?page=1

this explains the stats in D2 and D3. the guy is super, super thorough and detailed.

if that doesn't change your mind, nothing well :P you are a lost cause, and that will be fact not opinion.

A lot of posting is a lot of room for misconceptions.

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Autocthon wrote:

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Eviathluc wrote:

I'm not really debating the most effective part, just the non-effective part.

Calling it gimp just means you shy away from a challenge.

A challenge is the GAME challenging you. Not the build (which is supposed to always be a positive choice set in theory) working against you.

Two separate disagreements:

You don't need multiple builds for the game to challenge you. You just need to have one character with a predefined set of skills. Castlevania is a great example. The selection of a build is a preferred method in meeting the game's challenge. Choosing optimal damage is just one method.

As for a positive choice set... 6/8 skills available at one time? That restriction is potentially a negative (when it's not, there's a skill overlap situation and the 6/8 that are chosen have been optimized. I expect D3 to neatly fit into that category.) If you need to think of it in a different way: Consider a skill list of 40 skills in which you only pick 6. Each skill is binary, so you either have it at full power, or don't have it at all. Could we call those points? If not, what's the big fuss with skill switch cooldowns? Why not give out all the skills at once?

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Eviathluc wrote:

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Autocthon wrote:

"

Eviathluc wrote:

I'm not really debating the most effective part, just the non-effective part.

Calling it gimp just means you shy away from a challenge.

A challenge is the GAME challenging you. Not the build (which is supposed to always be a positive choice set in theory) working against you.

Two separate disagreements:

You don't need multiple builds for the game to challenge you. You just need to have one character with a predefined set of skills. Castlevania is a great example. The selection of a build is a preferred method in meeting the game's challenge. Choosing optimal damage is just one method.

As for a positive choice set... 6/8 skills available at one time? That restriction is potentially a negative (when it's not, there's a skill overlap situation and the 6/8 that are chosen have been optimized. I expect D3 to neatly fit into that category.) If you need to think of it in a different way: Consider a skill list of 40 skills in which you only pick 6. Each skill is binary, so you either have it at full power, or don't have it at all. Could we call those points? If not, what's the big fuss with skill switch cooldowns? Why not give out all the skills at once?

D3 has minimal difference between primary offensive skills. That mitigates bad choices in kit design. Specifically to make sure you're not screwed just because you like one auto attack spell over another.

I never had any problem with the "either have it or not" mentality of skill design. That very rarely has true balance problems, nor have I ever argued AGAINST just having a skill switch cooldow like D3.

What I MEAN when I say that choosing your skills shouldn't work against you is that the "challenge" in the game should not be dependent on what skills you like using. That is punishing players for happening to like a certain skilset. I mean there's some wiggle room: In D3 if I want to play a Wizard in melee I'm fine having to stat myself different from a ranged wizard. But if I need (hypothetically)30% total more stat points and better high end gear then that's just punishing me from taking a path that the designers HIGHLIGHTED with multiple melee oriented skills ON the wizard. A choice is not a choice if there is a mathematical best option, a challenge shouldn't be a challenge just because you never bothered to look up the best thing to do with your skillpoints.

Great article posted up there... particularly like these bits as they more or less totally debunk the silly claims flying around in this thread.

"

D3 takes stat allocation to a whole new level. A lot of players make the argument that they are losing out on the ability to customize their character, let’s take a look at that. What did we lose? If you look at the gem distribution you’ll note that they all add a significant amount to your stats, all the way from 6-58. You’d only need 10 max level gems to have more control over your base stats than a level 99 character in d2. It’s basically Blizzard saying “okay player, instead of spending 5 per level up to 500 points, we’ll give you items which give (instead of 6 levels worth at end-game D2) 20-40 levels worth of stat points as 1 modifier on an item”. There could be an item in Diablo 3 (or multiple items) that give more stat points than the entire level 2-99 bonus (490 points) COMBINED. Now put some gems into it! Now that’s the polar opposite of a “pretty !@#$ty customization system”. The biggest lesson here is that the higher the numbers go (outside of leveling bonuses), the more control a player has over where to spend them

"

Skill diversity is a pretty cut and dry argument. No sensible person could make the argument that D3 contains less diversity. This is both in terms of the animations, ranges of damage types, and utility. The rune system means that each class has roughly 150 different skills, most of them with unique animations. Allowing only 6 at a time is distinct from D2 allowing all skills to be learned at once. The difference here is that while you could theoretically learn all ~30 class skills, the reality is that only the max level ones would be viable. 6 at a time is typically more than any D2 character used anyway. In D3 you’ll start to see a much larger array of abilities used, since so many exist and because the damage scaling makes them all potentially viable.

/end thread

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RodHull wrote:

Great article posted up there... particularly like these bits as they more or less totally debunk the silly claims flying around in this thread.


/end thread

Lol. I better not start whats all wrong in your post.

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miljan wrote:

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RodHull wrote:

Great article posted up there... particularly like these bits as they more or less totally debunk the silly claims flying around in this thread.


/end thread

Lol. I better not start whats all wrong in your post.

...

How old are you? Really. What... 12? Cuz seriously EVERY ANALYZATION OF D3 in this thread has COMPLETELY beaten your arguments into the ground and yet you keep going. Eberyu analysis of the systems present in D3 PROVE your opinion wrong, and show far more customization in D3s system than there has been in ANY skill point system and yet like a child you refuse to listen.

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Autocthon wrote:

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miljan wrote:

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RodHull wrote:

Great article posted up there... particularly like these bits as they more or less totally debunk the silly claims flying around in this thread.


/end thread

Lol. I better not start whats all wrong in your post.

...

How old are you? Really. What... 12? Cuz seriously EVERY ANALYZATION OF D3 in this thread has COMPLETELY beaten your arguments into the ground and yet you keep going. Eberyu analysis of the systems present in D3 PROVE your opinion wrong, and show far more customization in D3s system than there has been in ANY skill point system and yet like a child you refuse to listen.

Man, first no one beaten anything, nor prove anything.
I have 25. Moving customization to items is not a improvment, also removing skill points doesnt improve more viable builds, it removes only wrong choises if the skils are balanced good. If you want we can start again.

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miljan wrote:

Man, first no one beaten anything, nor prove anything.
I have 25. Moving customization to items is not a improvment, also removing skill points doesnt improve more viable builds, it removes only wrong choises if the skils are balanced good. If you want we can start again.

Mathmatical fact:

If X is positive, X% of Y is <= Y.

There are more viable builds (mathmatically speaking.) in a system with 30 balanced skills than in a system with 30-not-balanced skills.

Or, to put it another way - the very fact that there are "wrong choices" to remove proves your statement logically impossible.

edit: For the the inevitiable nitpickers: Yes, X% of Y can be > Y if X > 100. Which, in the situation we are discussing, is impossible. X is "percent of viable (IE Balanced) skill combinations" and therefore can not exceed 100%.