This game ruined Diablo 3 for me...

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thepmrc wrote:

Thanks for providing that, I didn't really think you would. Not to attack you but really there is no reason to present the fact that you are a 'professional'. I was a professional gamer for quite a while making a living off of D2 and poker... does this mean that my opinion holds more weight? No, it holds the same weight as anyone who has any vested interest in the topic.

I'm not offended.

I would agree that your opinion doesn't hold more weight (nor does mine.).

However, I tend to be an absolutist, and I don't view this particular topic (if skill/attribute points count as a "choice") as opinion. It is (in my mind.) factual. There's no wiggle room. Opinion is saying "I don't care if it's not really a choice, I prefer it". Fine. And my opinion is that the person who says that is in the minority, and has other options, whereas the people who don't intend to gimp themselves (they just don't know better) have fewer options and more negatives. You can artificially make the game harder in a wide variety of ways. The person who thinks energy makes sense on their barb because they don't understand the need to intersperse whirlwinds with cleaves (or whatever.... ...), on the other hand, can't make their build work by clicking "godmode on" or something.

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miljan wrote:

The removal of skill points, doesnt mean it is balanced. If skill are not balanced so that there are with more dps, no skill point system will not change that. The skils will stay unbalanced even if there are no skill points.
Removal of skill points removed only less meaningful choices,but it doesn't add to more choices.

Well, other than quibbling (again) over "less meaningful choices", I don't disagree. I never said that the skills were balanced (Although I suspect they are, but that's a whole different ball of wax.), and I never said that removing skill points will automatically make them balanced.

Why are you arguing about something that I never disagreed with? Or are you replying to someone else but quoting my post?

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miljan wrote:

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Autocthon wrote:

......

I'm getting tired of this because we are going around in circle. Completing normal d2, is it completing the game? Yes. If i can make a build that works in normal, it means it is viable. If it's viable it is a option. If its not viable on higer dificultes, you have a free respect to change that.

In D2 that respec didn't exist until like 4 months ago. In D2 fucking up your skills meant starting a new character.

"

About the video, they said one interesting thing about wow. You are going to search for build that does most dps. But, if all skills do same dps you will not be able to be wrong. That is the thing Im saying all time. Balance skill don't come for removing skill points, but from balancing skill and the design, or better said dps output.

...

I just... You really are thick you know that? Choosing between whether to level one skill or another isn't a choice. You will put max points into the skills you use and ignore everything else. Doing ANYTHING else is ALWAYS a DPS loss, regardless of CDs, regardless of how the damage is dealt. Just because you can beat normal with it DOESN'T make it viable. It means you weren't so stupid as to be unable to make it through the kiddie pool. Normal mode has never been a metric of comparison in ANY diablo game (you know... except diablo that only had one mode IIRC).

The "skil tree" in D2 (and ANY skil tree) isn't CHOICE it is DECISIONS. There is some flexibility because you only need to meet a minimum DPS to be viable (unlike WoW where you get kicked if you do 1 less damage than the spreadsheet says you should do) you still need to meet a minimum point on the bar.

In D3 you make your choices by deciding what gear to equip. Each item type has different mods available. And you specialize in a skill by equipping equipment (which BTW is usually HARDER to replace than getting a new skill point) that gives bonuses to your skills. Read the D3 blog, they talk about the intention ALL THE TIME.

D3 simplyu CANNOT have a skill tree for active skills and remain balanced. The video HIGHLIGHTS why that point is true. The only kind of skill tree that works is a skilltree based around utility (A little MS here, a little dodge there Oh LOOK +MF I'll take that, or maybe I want that +damage to all my skills?). PoE is intelligent in that the skilltree is largely "divorced" from the skills. So you cannot make truly wrong choices in the same sense you can make wrong choices in D2 or WoW.

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AgentDave wrote:

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thepmrc wrote:

Thanks for providing that, I didn't really think you would. Not to attack you but really there is no reason to present the fact that you are a 'professional'. I was a professional gamer for quite a while making a living off of D2 and poker... does this mean that my opinion holds more weight? No, it holds the same weight as anyone who has any vested interest in the topic.

I'm not offended.

I would agree that your opinion doesn't hold more weight (nor does mine.).

However, I tend to be an absolutist, and I don't view this particular topic (if skill/attribute points count as a "choice") as opinion. It is (in my mind.) factual. There's no wiggle room. Opinion is saying "I don't care if it's not really a choice, I prefer it". Fine. And my opinion is that the person who says that is in the minority, and has other options, whereas the people who don't intend to gimp themselves (they just don't know better) have fewer options and more negatives. You can artificially make the game harder in a wide variety of ways. The person who thinks energy makes sense on their barb because they don't understand the need to intersperse whirlwinds with cleaves (or whatever.... ...), on the other hand, can't make their build work by clicking "godmode on" or something.

I still feel you are wrong. It is a matter of implementation. When you are presented with options and have to choose one, this by definition is a choice. You are twisting the meaning of the word 'Choice'. If I get 5 stat points to assign and can choose from 1 of 5 attributes to assign them to, in what way is this not a choice? Simply because one of the choices is not optimal?
By definition this IS a choice. However, its one you feel that a gamer should not be required to make, but it is a choice that many of us WANT the ability to make.

"

Autocthon wrote:

In D2 that respec didn't exist until like 4 months ago. In D2 fucking up your skills meant starting a new character.

Respect exists for few years now. So you don't fuck up your build.

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Autocthon wrote:

In D3 you make your choices by deciding what gear to equip. Each item type has different mods available. And you specialize in a skill by equipping equipment (which BTW is usually HARDER to replace than getting a new skill point) that gives bonuses to your skills. Read the D3 blog, they talk about the intention ALL THE TIME.

Equipment item is not a choice you can make. You need to get that item or make it. A lot of people say with a reason that customization in d3 is a lot more with items than d2 was.

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Autocthon wrote:

D3 simplyu CANNOT have a skill tree for active skills and remain balanced. The video HIGHLIGHTS why that point is true. The only kind of skill tree that works is a skilltree based around utility (A little MS here, a little dodge there Oh LOOK +MF I'll take that, or maybe I want that +damage to all my skills?). PoE is intelligent in that the skilltree is largely "divorced" from the skills. So you cannot make truly wrong choices in the same sense you can make wrong choices in D2 or WoW.

I'm not asking for skill tree,also video doesn't highlight that, it highlights that your in search for skill with best dps. And if you know that, there are no choices. You can have a skill tree and have balance. The dps of skill must be balanced, so every path you take will not be a wrong one.

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thepmrc wrote:

I still feel you are wrong. It is a matter of implementation. When you are presented with options and have to choose one, this by definition is a choice. You are twisting the meaning of the word 'Choice'. If I get 5 stat points to assign and can choose from 1 of 5 attributes to assign them to, in what way is this not a choice? Simply because one of the choices is not optimal?
By definition this IS a choice. However, its one you feel that a gamer should not be required to make, but it is a choice that many of us WANT the ability to make.

Did you not see the video I linked?

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Sickness wrote:

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thepmrc wrote:

I still feel you are wrong. It is a matter of implementation. When you are presented with options and have to choose one, this by definition is a choice. You are twisting the meaning of the word 'Choice'. If I get 5 stat points to assign and can choose from 1 of 5 attributes to assign them to, in what way is this not a choice? Simply because one of the choices is not optimal?
By definition this IS a choice. However, its one you feel that a gamer should not be required to make, but it is a choice that many of us WANT the ability to make.

Did you not see the video I linked?

Don't care about you, or your video, or your viewpoint anymore. I am done with this discussion.

lol.

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Autocthon wrote:

One skill point is not equal to another EVER unless all skills have the exact same stats. Any good D2 player will tell you that Frozen Orb sorceresses are the most efective sorceress builds. And that "altering" that will only make the game harder for yourself. Also any good D2 player will tell you that a sorc build not using Blizzard/Frozen Orb/Chain Lightning/Meteor/Fireball is so weak as to be non-effective in hell.

Pondering a reinstall of D2 to debate that point, *cough*.

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thepmrc wrote:

I still feel you are wrong. It is a matter of implementation. When you are presented with options and have to choose one, this by definition is a choice. You are twisting the meaning of the word 'Choice'. If I get 5 stat points to assign and can choose from 1 of 5 attributes to assign them to, in what way is this not a choice? Simply because one of the choices is not optimal?
By definition this is a choice.

"false choice" is a specific game design "thing". The linked Penny Arcade thingy (which was awesome) refers to it as "presenting a calculation disguised as a choice"

Although, I find the idea that there is any real choice behind, say, someone walking up to you and saying "I can shoot you in the head, or kick you in the nads, or give you $100. Which do you pick?" rather amusing. Semantically accurate, I suppose (in that context. As I said, we're in a specific context, and in this context, there is no choice, only the illusion of choice.), but amusing.

EDIT: Hmm, you edited.

You may want to assign your skill points or attribute points, but that, again, is preference (/opinion.). If it's fun for you, bully for you. But, that doesn't make it a better designed system, or a good option for the game.

In games, even sandbox games (which ARPGs aren't...) you can't always do what you want, how you want. That's just kind of how it works.