Blade Flurry seems so broken I don't want to start playing it before nerf

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raics wrote:
"
Icoblablubb wrote:
thats why i said the real problem is not the skill on itself for the most part its Poison/Bleed

Make a poison Reave then and compare them, the difference between broken and broken as fuck is still big even if it's irrelevant. The skill is far too powerful and far too convenient, you shouldn't be able to have both.


Kk. So you're this big nerf monger, we get it. Totally clear. But OP is a subjective statement. Since GGG doesn't produce damage numbers, and tooltips are pretty worthless with regards to measuring actual damage, what quantitative evidence do you have that BF is OP? Or let's say kicking out more of something than it should.

Because I would respect anyone who said, "look Tiem, the strongest skill right now does 20,000 dps with a radius of 30 yards and costs 15 mana per second, BF on the other hand does 25,000 dps with a 40 yard radius and costs 10 mana per second."

That statement would make total sense. If GGG has hard numbers to cap skills with, then exceeding those numbers would indeed show that a skill needs adjusting.

But that's not how this game works. Skills and time to kill are our basis to determine what's good or not. Even T16 trash mobs get one shotted by almost every skill in the game. So even that is a poor determinant of OPness. Bosses are a better predictor I suppose but is BF one-shotting bosses over other skills with an equivalent build? I watched BlastingCap one shot Uber Atziri with BF. He had a 800ex build and would later one shot her with other skills. So clearly it wasn't BF doing the work but the build itself and the extreme currency driving it.

So on what actual basis are you claiming BF needs a nerfs? Like actual quantitative evidence not some Mathil-esque this is OP because I say it's OP nonsense. Or "wow this feels OP so definitely nerf it." P

Not trolling legit asking.
Deliver pain exquisite
"
raics wrote:
"
Icoblablubb wrote:
thats why i said the real problem is not the skill on itself for the most part its Poison/Bleed

Make a poison Reave then and compare them, the difference between broken and broken as fuck is still big even if it's irrelevant. The skill is far too powerful and far too convenient, you shouldn't be able to have both.


Tell that to how many ranged attacks that are in fact both.
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Zac89 wrote:
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raics wrote:
"
Icoblablubb wrote:
thats why i said the real problem is not the skill on itself for the most part its Poison/Bleed

Make a poison Reave then and compare them, the difference between broken and broken as fuck is still big even if it's irrelevant. The skill is far too powerful and far too convenient, you shouldn't be able to have both.

Tell that to how many ranged attacks that are in fact both.

If those "ranged attacks" are "far too powerful and far too convenient" then they should IMO be nerfed as well.
No wonder it's lost, it's in the middle of the jungle!
"If those "ranged attacks" are "far too powerful and far too convenient" then they should IMO be nerfed as well."

That would mean GGG would pretty much have to stop making new leagues and sit down and pretty much overhaul most skills and the meta currently. Pretty much any bow build has AOE, DPS, Clear speed. Pretty much most spells have it too.
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Zac89 wrote:
"If those "ranged attacks" are "far too powerful and far too convenient" then they should IMO be nerfed as well."

That would mean GGG would pretty much have to stop making new leagues and sit down and pretty much overhaul most skills and the meta currently. Pretty much any bow build has AOE, DPS, Clear speed. Pretty much most spells have it too.

IMO balance is more important than adding new unbalanced stuff.

Most ranged skills by themselves are ok in terms of balance. But if DPS gets so high that there is no longer a drawback then they become OP. The DPS problem applies to everything though. So I rather think there is need for a conceptual overhaul. Right now player power rise is pretty much exponential. Which makes it close to impossible to properly balance the game. Part of that (*) is probably intentional though so I do not expect anything of the sort happening.

However nothing of that warrants outrageously "more/less powerful than others" type of skills. Like BV is simply much better than most (or all?) namelock melee skills.

And for some ranged skills there actually are also "out of whack" balance problems. Cant think of any ranged skill itself which has the problem. But the supplementary tools make some skills comparatively too strong. Like the head enchantment for Tornado Shot.

(*) Just look at the "long tail distribution" for phys damage weapons.
No wonder it's lost, it's in the middle of the jungle!
"
Zrevnur wrote:
Right now player power rise is pretty much exponential.


lol. No.
Deliver pain exquisite
"
"
Zrevnur wrote:
Right now player power rise is pretty much exponential.

lol. No.

Lack of understanding?

Examples for TS archer - many of these can/are repeated during player progression:

Get weapon with more damage: multiply power
Get weapon with more attack speed: multiply power
Get some %damage on tree: multiply power
Get some %attack speed on tree: multiply power
Get some crit: multiply power
Get some crit mult: multiply power
Get an extra link: multiply power
Get source of poison: multiply power
Get frenzy charges: multiply power
Use curse: multiply power
Get skill duration on tree: multiply power
Get extra arrow from corruption: multiply power
Get helmet enchantmet: multiply power

Lots of "stacking" multipliers => description "pretty much exponential" fits
No wonder it's lost, it's in the middle of the jungle!
"
So on what actual basis are you claiming BF needs a nerfs? Like actual quantitative evidence not some Mathil-esque this is OP because I say it's OP nonsense. Or "wow this feels OP so definitely nerf it." P

As you can very well see, I've got two claw users in Essence, the Witch was using Reave and the Berserker was mixing it out, I levelled most claw-compatible skills for him but probably used Wild Strike the most.

Now, the Witch is a summoner hybrid which means her dps isn't terribly good on its own, it needs a full team to be good and the Berserker goes evasion crit which wastes a lot of points on travel so it isn't a very strong build, it's kinda stretched and honestly lacks dps. So, both builds are far from being mirror class monsters that destroy Shaper in a blink.

So, I switched my Witch over to Flurry and tested it out on a Berserker, the witch doesn't need a team anymore and the Berserker becomes a solid char, that shouldn't happen by just slotting in a different skill. Even worse, the characters were not built to use it, do not invest in any mechanic specific to it and the gem wasn't fully levelled, just bought from merci Clarissa and slapped in.

I understand where you're coming from, if someone was claiming he sees the difference between 1mil and 1,5mil dps I'd be calling bullshit myself but the builds I got there are very sensitive to changes in power because they're both on the borderline of sorts. So I'm calling broken and you're welcome to try and prove otherwise.
Wish the armchair developers would go back to developing armchairs.

◄[www.moddb.com/mods/balancedux]►
◄[www.moddb.com/mods/one-vision1]►
Last edited by raics on Nov 29, 2016, 6:24:44 AM
It looks to be on par with BV / Warchiefs / CoCproxies.

But sure, if they wanna nerf all of those then BF should go too.
"

Kk. So you're this big nerf monger, we get it. Totally clear. But OP is a subjective statement. Since GGG doesn't produce damage numbers, and tooltips are pretty worthless with regards to measuring actual damage, what quantitative evidence do you have that BF is OP? Or let's say kicking out more of something than it should.

Because I would respect anyone who said, "look Tiem, the strongest skill right now does 20,000 dps with a radius of 30 yards and costs 15 mana per second, BF on the other hand does 25,000 dps with a 40 yard radius and costs 10 mana per second."

...

Not trolling legit asking.




Blade Flurry Level 2

"Deals 55.6% of base attack damage"
"65% more attack speed"
"unleash an additional strike for each stage reached once the channeling ends."

0.556 * 1.65 * 2 = 1.8348 = 183.5% of base damage

That's as strong as a Level 16 Heavy Strike with no channeling bonuses.

An low level area of effect channeling skill with extra range outdpses a high level dedicated single target skill, without even factoring in channeling bonuses. Naturally, because of the way single target skills are balanced, this also means Blade Flurry massively outperforms natural AoE skills. For example, Reave level 20 deals 138% of base damage. Blade Flurry level 2 deals 183.5%, or 33% more damage than Reave level 20.

That seems pretty quantitative to me.

Also, in my pseudosciency tests, Level 1 Blade Flurry kills Malachai about 25% faster than a Level 19 20% Lacerate.

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I like how Blade Flurry outperforms pretty much any melee skill of same level without even factoring in channeling bonuses, but I've wondered about how to actually incorporate the stage bonuses. It's heavily dependent on whether the return strikes are allowed to benefit from the stage bonus, and that I can't really tell.

To factor in the channeling bonus, because stages progress linearly, if you assume channeling to x point and releasing, you get 50% of the channeling bonus at x point. So, for example, if you assume full channeling, your channeled strikes deal 60% more damage.

If the return strikes don't get the bonus, you calculate net 25% of the channeling bonus at x point for average DPS boost (because 50% of channeled strikes get it, + 0% of return strikes get it). If the return strikes do get the bonus at last stage, you calculate net 75% of the channeling bonus at x point for average dps boost (because 50% of channeled strikes get it, + 100% of return strikes get it). If there's some weird LIFO crap going on or if the return strikes somehow "save data" of which stage it came from (i.e. weird FIFO crap), then you calculate net 50% of the channeling bonus.

Best case scenario:

Level 20 Blade Flurry
66.4% of base damage
65% more attack speed
20% more damage for each stage
return strikes use final stage multiplier

=

0.664 * 1.65 * (1 + 1.2 * 0.75) * 2 = 4.16328

Level 20 Blade Flurry with proper play would deal 416.3% of base damage, assuming the return strikes work favorably.

Compare that with Level 20 pre-nerf Earthquake, which, with one aftershock per Hit, would deal (1.09*1.79 + 1.09) = 304.11% of base damage. Blade Flurry also does not have to be built around, as Earthquake's duration does.

416.3 / 304.11 = 36.9% more damage than pre-nerf Earthquake. With no extra stat investment (duration).

If the return strikes work unfavorably:

0.664 * 1.65 * (1 + 1.2 * 0.25) * 2 = 2.8486 = 284.9% of base damage

284.9/304.11 = 6.3% less damage than pre-nerf Earthquake.

¯\_(ツ)_/¯

EDITed to fix some math errors.

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EDIT: Also, I'd be down to hear how you think clear speed can accurately be tested without samples of thousands of Maps.

MOAR EDITS: In case anyone was wondering, current Earthquake damage ratio is 1.09*1.5 + 1.09 = 272.5% of base damage, assuming perfect aftershock ratios (i.e. with duration investment).

Reminder that Blade Flurry, in the worst case scenario, outperforms that with no investment ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
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Last edited by adghar on Nov 29, 2016, 6:18:26 AM

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