Kk. So you're this big nerf monger, we get it. Totally clear. But OP is a subjective statement. Since GGG doesn't produce damage numbers, and tooltips are pretty worthless with regards to measuring actual damage, what quantitative evidence do you have that BF is OP? Or let's say kicking out more of something than it should.
Because I would respect anyone who said, "look Tiem, the strongest skill right now does 20,000 dps with a radius of 30 yards and costs 15 mana per second, BF on the other hand does 25,000 dps with a 40 yard radius and costs 10 mana per second."
...
Not trolling legit asking.
Blade Flurry Level 2
"Deals 55.6% of base attack damage"
"65% more attack speed"
"unleash an additional strike for each stage reached once the channeling ends."
0.556 * 1.65 * 2 = 1.8348 = 183.5% of base damage
That's as strong as a Level 16 Heavy Strike with no channeling bonuses.
An low level area of effect channeling skill with extra range outdpses a high level dedicated single target skill, without even factoring in channeling bonuses. Naturally, because of the way single target skills are balanced, this also means Blade Flurry massively outperforms natural AoE skills. For example, Reave level 20 deals 138% of base damage. Blade Flurry level 2 deals 183.5%, or 33% more damage than Reave level 20.
I like how Blade Flurry outperforms pretty much any melee skill of same level without even factoring in channeling bonuses, but I've wondered about how to actually incorporate the stage bonuses. It's heavily dependent on whether the return strikes are allowed to benefit from the stage bonus, and that I can't really tell.
To factor in the channeling bonus, because stages progress linearly, if you assume channeling to x point and releasing, you get 50% of the channeling bonus at x point. So, for example, if you assume full channeling, your channeled strikes deal 60% more damage.
If the return strikes don't get the bonus, you calculate net 25% of the channeling bonus at x point for average DPS boost (because 50% of channeled strikes get it, + 0% of return strikes get it). If the return strikes do get the bonus at last stage, you calculate net 75% of the channeling bonus at x point for average dps boost (because 50% of channeled strikes get it, + 100% of return strikes get it). If there's some weird LIFO crap going on or if the return strikes somehow "save data" of which stage it came from (i.e. weird FIFO crap), then you calculate net 50% of the channeling bonus.
Best case scenario:
Level 20 Blade Flurry
66.4% of base damage
65% more attack speed
20% more damage for each stage
return strikes use final stage multiplier
=
0.664 * 1.65 * (1 + 1.2 * 0.75) * 2 = 4.16328
Level 20 Blade Flurry with proper play would deal 416.3% of base damage, assuming the return strikes work favorably.
Compare that with Level 20 pre-nerf Earthquake, which, with one aftershock per Hit, would deal (1.09*1.79 + 1.09) = 304.11% of base damage. Blade Flurry also does not have to be built around, as Earthquake's duration does.
416.3 / 304.11 = 36.9% more damage than pre-nerf Earthquake. With no extra stat investment (duration).
If the return strikes work unfavorably:
0.664 * 1.65 * (1 + 1.2 * 0.25) * 2 = 2.8486 = 284.9% of base damage
284.9/304.11 = 6.3% less damage than pre-nerf Earthquake.
¯\_(ツ)_/¯
EDITed to fix some math errors.
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EDIT: Also, I'd be down to hear how you think clear speed can accurately be tested without samples of thousands of Maps.
MOAR EDITS: In case anyone was wondering, current Earthquake damage ratio is 1.09*1.5 + 1.09 = 272.5% of base damage, assuming perfect aftershock ratios (i.e. with duration investment).
Reminder that Blade Flurry, in the worst case scenario, outperforms that with no investment ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
So you took base damage values and compared BF to EQ and HS. And because it had a higher base ceiling, you conclude that it's op. Never mind that you can shoot and reposition with bow skills, or you can exploit flasks with Pathfinder and BV or stack obscene damage with skills like discharge or burning arrow. Actually what is the ceiling on burning arrow if you get max ignites at level 21 with a +3 bow? Bazillions? I'd say pushing a skill to its conceivable boundaries and even then, taking into account things like mobility, leech rates, defenses, basically how the entire build functions, is a better determinate. Or again, if you had max values for every end game build and could stack them along some criteria (AoE, mana cost, deeps, etc.) that would be a great place to start. But if you're calling a foul on balance without that kind of stuff, then you're just basically like raics who sort of just kinda feels it's too strong. Except you erroneously led to your conclusion with the briefly it's "scientific" because numbers and maths.
I don't think I have to further point out that taking a sliver of data is not sufficient evidence. It's like I took your tire pressure and concluded your car was too fast.
So on what actual basis are you claiming BF needs a nerfs? Like actual quantitative evidence not some Mathil-esque this is OP because I say it's OP nonsense. Or "wow this feels OP so definitely nerf it." P
As you can very well see, I've got two claw users in Essence, the Witch was using Reave and the Berserker was mixing it out, I levelled most claw-compatible skills for him but probably used Wild Strike the most.
Now, the Witch is a summoner hybrid which means her dps isn't terribly good on its own, it needs a full team to be good and the Berserker goes evasion crit which wastes a lot of points on travel so it isn't a very strong build, it's kinda stretched and honestly lacks dps. So, both builds are far from being mirror class monsters that destroy Shaper in a blink.
So, I switched my Witch over to Flurry and tested it out on a Berserker, the witch doesn't need a team anymore and the Berserker becomes a solid char, that shouldn't happen by just slotting in a different skill. Even worse, the characters were not built to use it, do not invest in any mechanic specific to it and the gem wasn't fully levelled, just bought from merci Clarissa and slapped in.
I understand where you're coming from, if someone was claiming he sees the difference between 1mil and 1,5mil dps I'd be calling bullshit myself but the builds I got there are very sensitive to changes in power because they're both on the borderline of sorts. So I'm calling broken and you're welcome to try and prove otherwise.
Ya that's the point I was trying to make. I think everyone pretty much did what you did. They plugged it into their builds and ran with it. It did good, too good for their expectations, and they cried nerf. Makes me sad that we couldn't get a good melee skill as a result ;-;
I think everyone pretty much did what you did. They plugged it into their builds and ran with it. It did good, too good for their expectations, and they cried nerf.
What else is there? You plug a skill in and see if it performs better or worse, not even detailed calcs will tell you everything, let alone tooltips. And if I don't even need to time boss kills that means it's so much better it's obvious, hell, my 90y old grandmother could tell you it's a better skill and she doesn't even know what video games are.
With the kind of range it has I want Flurry on par with Spectral Throw, it would ideally have lower clear speed than ST but be a better boss killer. That's balance.
I'm not here to compare skills that use melee weapons to the rest of skill roster, that's a different story. Probably one that won't end in 'they lived happily ever after'.
Wish the armchair developers would go back to developing armchairs.
Same mob type. Reave took 101 seconds to kill. Blade flurry 31 seconds.
At lvl 1: Blade Flurry ST damage is 3.26x Reave ST damage
At lvl 20 Reave does 1.38x the damage of lvl 1.
At lvl 20 BF does 1.21x the damage of lvl 1.
So adjusted for lvl 20 it would be 73 seconds vs 25.6 seconds.
At lvl 20: Blade Flurry ST damage is 2.86x Reave ST damage
Tested with this:
Do you mean that you want BF to be at reave levels of damage? Or like the other guy, up in the thread, heavy strike? 2 skills that are almost non existant in the meta.
Compare it to the other ones that are good, like BV, Warchief, CoCproxy etc.
Do you mean that you want BF to be at reave levels of damage? Or like the other guy, up in the thread, heavy strike? 2 skills that are almost non existant in the meta.
Compare it to the other ones that are good, like BV, Warchief, CoCproxy etc.
People were arguing about "how much better". I supplied the numbers.
And what I want is a nerf for all OP skills and a boost for all UP skills.
No wonder it's lost, it's in the middle of the jungle!
Do you mean that you want BF to be at reave levels of damage? Or like the other guy, up in the thread, heavy strike? 2 skills that are almost non existant in the meta.
Compare it to the other ones that are good, like BV, Warchief, CoCproxy etc.
People were arguing about "how much better". I supplied the numbers.
And what I want is a nerf for all OP skills and a boost for all UP skills.
You are bringing numbers to support your own opinion, thats why you get them to look like that. Also called biased.
If you instead compared top skills vs each others the results would be quite diffrent.
You are bringing numbers to support your own opinion,
Not quite. I didnt use BF before testing it like that. The "gibberish" description on the skill gem didnt tell me how much damage it actually did. And I wanted to know whether the "hype" was true or not. I would have posted the numbers no matter how they turned out.
thats why you get them to look like that. Also called biased.
They look exactly like that because they are like that. Which is the cool thing about numbers. They are much more "objective" than people writing random opinions.
If you instead compared top skills vs each others the results would be quite diffrent.
Unfortunately "top skills" cannot be compared as easily like that.
But if you want "somebody" to put in the effort to make those "top skills" comparable: You can do it yourself. I actually put in some effort - instead of just adding some random opintion. Feel free to do so as well if you want to showcase your side.
No wonder it's lost, it's in the middle of the jungle!
They look exactly like that because they are like that. Which is the cool thing about numbers. They are much more "objective" than people writing random opinions.
Though I'm quite big on anecdotal evidence, numbers are great but they don't tell the whole story, like how comfortable is the skill to use.
Speaking of anecdotal evidence, I still have to read this somewhere:
"
"I replaced my primary skill with Blade Flurry and ran ten or so maps to test it in action, the skill wasn't really good so I went back to my previous setup."
Regards,
Herr Supporterr
Wish the armchair developers would go back to developing armchairs.
With the kind of range it has I want Flurry on par with Spectral Throw, it would ideally have lower clear speed than ST but be a better boss killer. That's balance.
i concur with this statement.
honestly i'll be riding the BF train as long as it can take me. i haven't done guardians or shaper on my other builds yet. hell i just plugged in BF in place of spectral throw on my mathil dreamfeather chaos/poison dmg build and did atziri. first time doing atziri and it was insanely easy.
double vaal i just focused one down then the other. neither lived longer than 5 seconds above ground.
trio was all dead within 8 seconds total. didn't take a lick of damage.
atziri phases were down almost instantly. i did die once to bleed spear but its only because i forgot to turn off my blasphemy poacher's mark so my evasion was severely gimped and the spear actually connected with me while i was whirling away from flameblast. no issues other than that mistake, which again was my first atziri kill and only my 2nd atziri attempt (first attempt with other build a loonnnnng time ago).
i am comparing this skill to spectral throw. i think its a valid comparison. as of right now the damage difference is so far out of this world its unbelievable. the clear speed isn't as fast, no, because spectral throw offers so much mobility if you play the skill right, but BF damage and safety is still absolutely ridiculous.
keep in mind this is on a build that is optimized and specialized for spectral throw, and not blade flurry. this is where the real issue comes in. to be able to plug and play a skill like BF on any other melee build and instantly gain 200% effectiveness and like 900% damage without optimized passives, gear, and gem level....what the fuck.
look....i know we all want skills that allow us to insta-gib and trivialize all content because thats "fun" and makes it quick and easy to actually do all content....but no. that isn't what path of exile stands for and it never has been.
if you want that type of game there are plenty of free to play, pay to win MMORPGs out there
