"GGG considers it impossible for melee to reach t15 "

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Fruz wrote:

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Emphasy wrote:

Nobody is arguing that. But inreliability of online gaming is something that is a fixpoint. And if you make a game were a DC or a 1-2 second lagspike is always survivability every situation where no such issues are present are entirely unable harmless. You can't make a game that never threatens your life because you could have a lag spike. Because I this argument the game should actually never allowed to deal fatal damage to me. When I have only 10% HP left, the monsters should stop attacking me, because I could get a short lag spike that kills me. You seem for some reason to assume that lag spikes or DCs only happen to full HP players... they do not. And if you are low they will kill you and if you are full HP they might kill you but you could survive.

If we remove any damage from the game that has the ability to kill you in maybe 1,5 seconds we would have to remove pretty much any damage from the game. Because you could have twin bosses. Or a group of blues, and if one blue enemy can remove 5% of your max HP, 20 might kill you.

Hell I have .... it's pointless.

I've given examples of why this is wrong and you're free to address those points at any time.

Corrupting blood can kill your character from full to 0 in less than a second, but only under certain conditions you create for yourself and if you don't bleed flask.

This is a lethal mechanic that isn't a 52k one shot. Another example is freezing on strong boxes... very lethal but I rarely hear complaining about it.

No, you're not asking for lethality in enemy damage, you're asking for 52k one shot potential and still between the four of you haven't even provided one reason why that would be better than another CB-like or freezing-like mechanic.

But do go on about how great 52k instant damage is and how it's everyone else's fault for not listening, people are capable of reading the thread and they're not too stupid to see you have no justification for your opinion.

This is an arpg not call of duty, that shit doesn't belong here.

Well it is an Action RPG not a turn-based game. Spike events are just a reality.

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Legatus1982 wrote:

I've given examples of why this is wrong and you're free to address those points at any time.

Corrupting blood can kill your character from full to 0 in less than a second, but only under certain conditions you create for yourself and if you don't bleed flask.

This is a lethal mechanic that isn't a 52k one shot. Another example is freezing on strong boxes... very lethal but I rarely hear complaining about it.

No, you're not asking for lethality in enemy damage, you're asking for 52k one shot potential and still between the four of you haven't even provided one reason why that would be better than another CB-like or freezing-like mechanic.

But do go on about how great 52k instant damage is and how it's everyone else's fault for not listening, people are capable of reading the thread and they're not too stupid to see you have no justification for your opinion.

No man, you've kept missing my point.

Corrupted blood can instant kill you if there is a connection problem, it goes completely against your original point that instant kill should not be possible as long as there are ocnnection problems by the way lol.

Thank you for that example.
Getting killed by freezing boxes is kinda noobish, and I say that always opening the boxes unidentified, and in HC too.

I will try one more time : designing around mechanics that would spare you if you have a connection problem would give too many design restrictions, and would make the game less interesting.
It's not a question of OHKO or not, you started saying that OHKO were bad because connections are not perfect ... well that's life, it's an online game, and every player knows that it can happen.
Having telegraphed attacks that almost nobody can tank ( and therefore needs to be dodged ) is a design decision that is not that bad, because facetanking everything is not healthy for the game.
There could be other measure to prevent facetanking everything of course, that is a bit of another discussion.

I skipped the last sentence because I honestly found it quite ridiculous.

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Fruz wrote:

No man, you've kept missing my point.

Corrupted blood can instant kill you if there is a connection problem, it goes completely against your original point that instant kill should not be possible as long as there are ocnnection problems by the way lol.

Thank you for that example.
Getting killed by freezing boxes is kinda noobish, and I say that always opening the boxes unidentified, and in HC too.

I will try one more time : designing around mechanics that would spare you if you have a connection problem would give too many design restrictions, and would make the game less interesting.
It's not a question of OHKO or not, you started saying that OHKO were bad because connections are not perfect ... well that's life, it's an online game, and every player knows that it can happen.
Having telegraphed attacks that almost nobody can tank ( and therefore needs to be dodged ) is a design decision that is not that bad, because facetanking everything is not healthy for the game.
There could be other measure to prevent facetanking everything of course, that is a bit of another discussion.

I skipped the last sentence because I honestly found it quite ridiculous.

There is not a time where my connection dies and corrupting blood kills me sorry, that isn't how cb works.

OHKOS are bad design. There is a difference between not facetanking everything and 52k instant damage. Your problem is the inability to distinguish the two. One is bad design and the other is not. I've given the examples.

Yeah corrupting blood is a terrible example...

It is one of the things you feel most terrible about if you die to it due to a lag spike. And that is one of the things predictive doesn't predict, that I would use my flask if I can.

And there are tons of mechanics that do exactly the same. Actually fully stacked corrupting blood without you leeching back (because you lag) kills you faster than a Vaal Slam. So how is a Vaal Slam bad but corrupting.

And then again were to draw a line? Is a 0,5 second lag spike fine? 2 seconds? Or maybe 5?

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But do go on about how great 52k instant damage is and how it's everyone else's fault for not listening, people are capable of reading the thread and they're not too stupid to see you have no justification for your opinion.

We have, those damage numbers exist in the game basically forever and there were always people playing with it. And your option isn't really doable. So how much damage should an enemy be allowed to do. Or even more important a group of enemies, because you might often encounter multiples.

You also need to consider buffed up double bosses. So lets just assume you say 6k is fine. It will still oneshot some but it is technically possible to survive it. But because we could have double bosses we have to reduce it to 3k. Because we could have 100 Crit mult we have to reduce it to 1,5k. And because we could have increased damage on the boss we have to do with 1,2k. And suddenly the boss is a complete joke as long as you have no DC or lag which is for the huge majority of people.

The difference between cb and vaal slam is cb you did to yourself and you had a flask you could have used to prevent it altogether. Or you can wait in between hits for the stacks to fall offor. Just like freezing.

Or you could say "I believe I will kill this pack in few enough hits that cb won't kill me." That's a trade off skill-based decision you make yourself. Or you bring the flask instead of sun burst and lower your clear speed.

There's nothing skilled or strategic about dodging a vaal slam, you either miss it or you don't and it's easy as fuck to dodge. You could just as well take vaal slam away and the game would literally be the same except for those few people who had mouse batteries go out on vaal.

I've given you enough reasons by now that you're going to have to come up with something to support your view. Give me a reason OHKO is good design. I've shown enemies can be lethal without OHKO, so your point that "hurr durr but mah challenge difficulty" has no logical basis.

And no I don't need to consider map mods, you rolled those yourself. I'm talking about base damage. What you DO need to consider is that not every build is a fucking 13k es buffer, and that some rares like giant skeletons can get damage mods locally. Or in the case of dd, health mods.

There can be plenty of situations where you get plenty of corrupted blood stacks almost instantly, and with nasty mods + a pike of lag, that is lethal :
- chain fast projectiles hitting blue corrupted mobs offscreen and killing them
- chain fast projectiles all hitting the corrupted boss surrounded by whatever effect makes you no see it clearly and there was no time to hover on it before projectile reaches it
- any aoe that goes a little over the screen edge and make a pack of corrupted mobs die, because of ele prolif or whatever
- anything that ends up killing corrupted blood monsters offscreen, basically.
- plenty of projectile in one direction when the mobs are just starting appearing from the ground, you clicked before, lag spike -> they all die -> happy corrupted blood stacks.

There are such situations, that you basically cannot predict unless to get close, and wait, which would double the clearspeed.

And no, you have not give any valid reason at all, you barely answered what has been said here actually.

Dodging a vaal slam is everything about skill, it means you need to be aware, to detect the pattern, and do that at the same time as everything else happening ( in case of double vaal, you need to be aware of both, plus potentially some other monsters in there ).
And double vaal oversoul under steroid + onslaught are nothing like a cake walk to dodge.

Saying that removing the slam would not change anything is a freaking stupid lie, the difference between afk facetank and not being able to do it is huge as hell.
Your argument has no logical base, you brought absolutely nothing substantial and literally ignored what we have said, and you seem to be mistaking on the meaning of "logic" on top of that.

Saying that map mods do no matter is obviously of a really bad faith, and a proof of lack of game design comprehension.

Which brings me back to my point of the last page :

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Fruz wrote:

Hell I have .... it's pointless.

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The difference between cb and vaal slam is cb you did to yourself and you had a flask you could have used to prevent it altogether. Or you can wait in between hits for the stacks to fall offor. Just like freezing.

Oh... wait. How is that any different to Detonate Dead. You Detonate the corpse by killing the enemy providing it. If you have a lag spike, the enemy won't die. I can also tell you that this argument is wacky, but you actually used it yourself here:

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Or you could say "I believe I will kill this pack in few enough hits that cb won't kill me." That's a trade off skill-based decision you make yourself. Or you bring the flask instead of sun burst and lower your clear speed.

Again that assumes a situation you have full control off. Lets assume you are running BV. You can't stop attacking, if you have a lag your BV will allow CB to stack and when the enemy dies your leech is gone and you will die basically instantly (and since the enemy also dies instantly and provides you 20 stacks, if you have 20 BV stacks) you are likely dead in about 0,5 seconds, because BV builds usually don't have build in physical mitigation or endurance charges or any life/ES reg.

If you have lags you will die to basically everything in the game in a high enough map.

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I've given you enough reasons by now that you're going to have to come up with something to support your view. Give me a reason OHKO is good design. I've shown enemies can be lethal without OHKO, so your point that "hurr durr but mah challenge difficulty" has no logical basis.

CB is not lethal of course unless you have lags. First most rares don't have enough HP. My Earthquake Juggernaut oneshots most weaker rares, which gives him two Stacks. And most high damage casts like Vortex or Bladefall are very similar. Of course there are high HP rares or skills like Bladefall, but again they only die if they lag and are unable to remove the stacks. Because Bladefall will stack to full with every hit, which isn't bad since you are usually permanently bleed immune due to your flasks, but if you lag and they run out you are likely dead.

Ok nice paragraphs TLDR but doubt there was a single reason anywhere in that book about why OHKO is a better mechanic than cb or freezing.

So again we are still waiting for you to provide a single logical footstep for your argument and after several pages you still can't. At this point it should be obvious to everyone.

No, we are waiting for you to understand what we said .... ( and to provide anything actually substantial to the discussion )


Actually, no, I've given up on that already, glhf Emphasy.

There are definitely things that are probably obvious to most people here by now indeed,