"GGG considers it impossible for melee to reach t15 "

"
ScrotieMcB wrote:
Okay, so if lab traps cannot OHKO but they cause lag deaths, maybe the problem isn't the OH, but the KO + lag.

So maybe the solution to the lag death issue is logout (saving character) if excessive ping detected.


Or you can maybe shift your attention away from DIRECTLY discussing ONLY lag because that isn't the only issue here, in fact it's a pretty minor point in the overall debate, and your solution won't even fix the problem anyways.
my evasion is so high i only insta rip sometimes
-----
Bug Fixes:
People were using cyclone for actual melee builds, so we nerfed it and made blade vortex. Also, we went ahead and made cyclone great for CoC casters while we were at it.
Last edited by Legatus1982 on Sep 21, 2016, 10:36:47 PM
Mechanics that you can get immune to either temporarily or permanently, very scary shit there.

Mechanics that will kill you all the same during a lag, which regarding to my original point makes it completely ..... irrelevant.

Like, completely.

Saying that Vaal smash is more unforgiving than corrupting blood or getting frozen in a very bad situation during a lag spike is just plain wrong, as we explained.
But you have been explaination proof in this thread so far.

And running the lab or some difficult bosses or map mods on a laggy day is suicidal, you know it could happen, you ran it all the same.


Content that scares people is damn good.

"
Legatus1982 wrote:

So again I've given reasons how enemies can be lethal and not OHKO. I've also given reasons why OHKO is dumb, whether you agree with them or not they are valid reasons.

Nop, really not.
We explained you several time how this was irrelevant, and how the said OHKO are not different from your "reasons" in the case of what is being discussed : lag spikes.


"
ScrotieMcB wrote:

Okay, so if lab traps cannot OHKO but they cause lag deaths, maybe the problem isn't the OH, but the KO + lag.

Everybody has been saying that from the start, hasn't pierced through yet.

I believe every good HC players knows that lag spike in a porentially dangerous situation => log out, for safety's sake ( and because it's part of the game ).
You have couple of people that will always be sayign "I'm not a pussy I don't log out heh!" but that comes from a misunderstanding of this game, imho.
SSF is not and will never be a standard for balance, it is not for people entitled to getting more without trading.
Last edited by Fruz on Sep 21, 2016, 10:53:34 PM
I'm not going to get stuck in a stupid fucking circle jerk of nitpicking every individual goddamn line of text that was said here, resulting in mountains of fucking text LIKE EMPHASY'S that nobody wants to read. The debate has reached one point and I'm not going to let you people deflect back and forth away from it.

Valid reasons were given why CB and freeze are less stupid than OHKO. Give a counter point or stop posting.
my evasion is so high i only insta rip sometimes
-----
Bug Fixes:
People were using cyclone for actual melee builds, so we nerfed it and made blade vortex. Also, we went ahead and made cyclone great for CoC casters while we were at it.
Last edited by Legatus1982 on Sep 21, 2016, 10:44:20 PM
It's funny because after Emphasy took some time to actualy show the direction of the discussion and what had been said, you just conveniently completely ignored it.

Still missing the point, try again.
SSF is not and will never be a standard for balance, it is not for people entitled to getting more without trading.
"
Legatus1982 wrote:
"
ScrotieMcB wrote:
Okay, so if lab traps cannot OHKO but they cause lag deaths, maybe the problem isn't the OH, but the KO + lag.

So maybe the solution to the lag death issue is logout (saving character) if excessive ping detected.
Or you can maybe shift your attention away from DIRECTLY discussing ONLY lag because that isn't the only issue here, in fact it's a pretty minor point in the overall debate, and your solution won't even fix the problem anyways.
My contention is that lag isn't a factor regarding the OHKO debate at all. The number of hits is irrelevant; damage sufficient to kill you from full while lagged out feels horrible, regardless of one hit, five hits, or zero hit DoT. Lag KO isn't any better than lag OHKO.

I hope we can agree it's irrelevant, but I'd settle for you considering it trivial.

As far as the issue itself: one can't really design no OHKOs. One character's OHKO might not kill another character. It's build-dependent.

Vaal Pact also exacerbates the issue. Stun-lock or freeze-lock (both of which have flask outs) or OHKO are the only monster options to get a kill. Attrition damage is meaningless.

I believe the key timing factor for spike damage (regardless of number of hits) AND for player healing rate is human reaction time. There should usually be time to react between damage taken, which means players shouldn't have access to (non-flask, non-cooldown, etc) healing which renders such monster damage irrelevant. However, that's a general goal assuming average builds - there's always going to be some glass who gets OHKO'd by stuff.
When Stephen Colbert was killed by HYDRA's Project Insight in 2014, the comedy world lost a hero. Since his life model decoy isn't up to the task, please do not mistake my performance as political discussion. I'm just doing what Steve would have wanted.
"
Fruz wrote:
It's funny because after Emphasy took some time to actualy show the direction of the discussion and what had been said, you just conveniently completely ignored it.

Still missing the point, try again.


You obviously have no intention of actually continuing the conversation so seeya
my evasion is so high i only insta rip sometimes
-----
Bug Fixes:
People were using cyclone for actual melee builds, so we nerfed it and made blade vortex. Also, we went ahead and made cyclone great for CoC casters while we were at it.
"
ScrotieMcB wrote:
My contention is that lag isn't a factor regarding the OHKO debate at all. The number of hits is irrelevant; damage sufficient to kill you from full while lagged out feels horrible, regardless of one hit, five hits, or zero hit DoT. Lag KO isn't any better than lag OHKO.

I hope we can agree it's irrelevant, but I'd settle for you considering it trivial.

As far as the issue itself: one can't really design no OHKOs. One character's OHKO might not kill another character. It's build-dependent.

Vaal Pact also exacerbates the issue. Stun-lock or freeze-lock (both of which have flask outs) or OHKO are the only monster options to get a kill. Attrition damage is meaningless.

I believe the key timing factor for spike damage (regardless of number of hits) AND for player healing rate is human reaction time. There should usually be time to react between damage taken, which means players shouldn't have access to (non-flask, non-cooldown, etc) healing which renders such monster damage irrelevant. However, that's a general goal assuming average builds - there's always going to be some glass who gets OHKO'd by stuff.


Lag IS a factor, especially on GGG's servers. You're also throwing successive hits in a .1ms time frame into the same basket as latency; they are two separate issues, not one issue. You're just making it harder to discuss.

You CAN design OHKO's, using a normalized health value. Players should expect to have X amount of life or ES and large hits should be a portion less than that value. Running less EHP than that value SHOULD run the risk of being OHKO'd, as a trade off for the extra damage nodes you grabbed instead - probably on a standard character. But let's not pretend a 52k+ hit (resulting in at least 13k+ ES damage) is somehow a normal value. Let's also not pretend GGG isn't well known already for putting in excessive spike damage and OHKO mechanics into their game where they don't belong.

As far as the OHKO vs two-hit KO in .1ms point, they are logically the same. I'm referring to any mechanic that can kill your character in less than a certain amount of time, BUT the fact is they are slightly different. Chaska for example was COMPLETE BULLSHIT and was never a single hit. Doesn't change the fact that her damage output should not have ever existed. Calling it an OHKO or not is semantics and is pointless. It's the same mechanic as touch of god, just looks a little different and one has an obvious windup (which still doesn't justify its existence).
my evasion is so high i only insta rip sometimes
-----
Bug Fixes:
People were using cyclone for actual melee builds, so we nerfed it and made blade vortex. Also, we went ahead and made cyclone great for CoC casters while we were at it.
Last edited by Legatus1982 on Sep 22, 2016, 6:56:21 AM
I rewatched the video many times trying to figure out how it could have been avoided, or how that mechanic is justifiable at all... and i cant

This has to be some of the worst level design/mechanic design of any game I have ever seen.

1. There is no way in hell anyone can know ( prior to fighting these bosses ) that the instant DD will occur.

None of the mob are using DD or have some kind of affix that says - Casts Vaal Detonate Dead like Shivershell does when he is summoned/spawned it says under the list of mods that he casts VDD

2. There was literally no delay on the DD

The second the boss went down and spawned the DD skele the DD went off and killed you.

How the fk is this even avoidable?



Horrible game balance

These new bosses are the most cancerous thing since desync

POE is headed downhill :(
"
Legatus1982 wrote:
"
ScrotieMcB wrote:
My contention is that lag isn't a factor regarding the OHKO debate at all. The number of hits is irrelevant; damage sufficient to kill you from full while lagged out feels horrible, regardless of one hit, five hits, or zero hit DoT. Lag KO isn't any better than lag OHKO.

I hope we can agree it's irrelevant, but I'd settle for you considering it trivial.

As far as the issue itself: one can't really design no OHKOs. One character's OHKO might not kill another character. It's build-dependent.

Vaal Pact also exacerbates the issue. Stun-lock or freeze-lock (both of which have flask outs) or OHKO are the only monster options to get a kill. Attrition damage is meaningless.

I believe the key timing factor for spike damage (regardless of number of hits) AND for player healing rate is human reaction time. There should usually be time to react between damage taken, which means players shouldn't have access to (non-flask, non-cooldown, etc) healing which renders such monster damage irrelevant. However, that's a general goal assuming average builds - there's always going to be some glass who gets OHKO'd by stuff.


Lag IS a factor, especially on GGG's servers. You're also throwing successive hits in a .1ms time frame into the same basket as latency; they are two separate issues, not one issue. You're just making it harder to discuss.

You CAN design OHKO's, using a normalized health value. Players should expect to have X amount of life or ES and large hits should be a portion less than that value. Running less EHP than that value SHOULD run the risk of being OHKO'd, as a trade off for the extra damage nodes you grabbed instead - probably on a standard character. But let's not pretend a 52k+ hit (resulting in at least 13k+ ES damage) is somehow a normal value. Let's also not pretend GGG isn't well known already for putting in excessive spike damage and OHKO mechanics into their game where they don't belong.

As far as the OHKO vs two-hit KO in .1ms point, they are logically the same. I'm referring to any mechanic that can kill your character in less than a certain amount of time, BUT the fact is they are slightly different. Chaska for example was COMPLETE BULLSHIT and was never a single hit. Doesn't change the fact that her damage output should not have ever existed. Calling it an OHKO or not is semantics and is pointless. It's the same mechanic as touch of god, just looks a little different and one has an obvious windup (which still doesn't justify its existence).


I believe that the clear speed meta is a result of the problem you are trying to describe. You can't build to survive every single insanely damaging attack. Therefore it's easier to just get enough defences to survive regular content and try to obliterate every dangerous boss with as much damage and as fast as possible. If it's a lengthy fight, chance that there is an internet fuckup increases.

Many problems would be solved if PoE had offline mode just for bosses.
I'm a forum warrior, i was born to post, raised to defend my league. Now my post has been removed, chained and exiled by mods who Ban. Ban is my brother; i do not fear it. I see it in the eyes of men and beasts that i troll. It will take me to play the actual game when i am ready and i am not ready.
Last edited by Pyrokar on Sep 22, 2016, 7:20:34 AM
Hardcore... RIP
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Last edited by cipher_nemo on Sep 22, 2016, 2:08:23 PM

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