"GGG considers it impossible for melee to reach t15 "

I wonder what was said to provoke the deletion of posts. Although if outright deleted, I guess I can assume there was zero content of merit... right?

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I rewatched the video many times trying to figure out how it could have been avoided, or how that mechanic is justifiable at all... and i cant

This has to be some of the worst level design/mechanic design of any game I have ever seen.

1. There is no way in hell anyone can know ( prior to fighting these bosses ) that the instant DD will occur.

None of the mob are using DD or have some kind of affix that says - Casts Vaal Detonate Dead like Shivershell does when he is summoned/spawned it says under the list of mods that he casts VDD

2. There was literally no delay on the DD

The second the boss went down and spawned the DD skele the DD went off and killed you.

How the fk is this even avoidable?


(

Yeah, i dont understand how they can defend such silly "strategy", there is litteraly nothing to do against it, as you say.

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Emphasy wrote:

I said it wasn't instant, because it is actually well telegraphed. Do you know who decides when DD happens? You. Because without providing the body for the explosion no explosion will happen. So killing a high HP target near something with a high damage DD (like a Unique or an increased Damage DD guy in Poorjoys) should be sign enough. Either kill the DD guy first or stand a bit further away from the body you offer for DD. DD is propably the most telegraphed skill in the game, because you know exactly when it happens.

Yes, DD is not telegraphed if you do not know when or if it will happen. In the video, clearly it's the case: Nothing show or say that a DD will happen. The biggest hint is desecrate but the boss was DEAD so it COULDNT explode by a DD. Unless of course if another boss spawns after the first one! But who would expect such shitty mechanic?!


Here the real culprit the combinaison of the spawn of a second DD boss triggered by the death of a first boss, on top of first boss' body which doesnt disappear. It's totally dumb and untested.

All melee chars will die. If the map has "increased aoe", even mid range ( fireball shotgun or similar) will die.


The first corpse shall be removed when the 2nd boss spawns.





And for the " lol play ranged/ totem / reave" answers:

Yeah guys, the whole melee "side" is totally useless and shouldnt be played at all because it's not viable ! Balance !

Honestly, who will play dual strike in melee then go away with ST+ culling, WHO?
If such "strategy" becomes -needed- for only one boss, IT IS A PROBLEM. To counter a BADLY DONE CONTENT with such setup.... It's anti-gameplay: it forces all melee to not be melee. The result? They will skip the boss.

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Emphasy wrote:

Ask a Pathfinder how dangerous CB and Freeze are... he might have not even noticed they exist. You can be immune to Freeze and CB, you can't do a high damage hit. Of course players will try to get more HP than any hit can deal, but that might not be successful (or we wouldn't have this thread).

Freezes don't kill you. And with your argument that you shouldn't die to lags how should a freeze kill you if it basically is like a lag. A 1second freeze is exactly the same as a 1second lagspike. Although of course you cannot get a flask that removes lag and makes you invulnerable to it. But in general Freezing someone and arguing it is dangerous means he has no defense against it, otherwise it is not dangerous and in that moment it is exactly like lag.

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First this is your opinion not a fact, second I've shown you can still die and combat bots without ohko, and third why should a character built only to tank that has no dps still be forced to avoid hits?

How do you plan to kill a permanenlty flasked BV Pathfinder with stun immunity? He is immune to bleed, freeze and shock and likely even curses. He regains full HP every 0,5 seconds. Freeze and CB are very bad examples. He might die to Volatiles, he might die to DD, he might die to a buffed up Vaal Smash. The only other way to kill him would be to damage him without an enemy present, which would be a terrible mechanic, because there shouldn't be something killing you that you cannot attack or move away from.

TBH I don't think pathfinder as it is should exist, people have been spamming all over the forums how permanent flask up time is OP and I completely agree with that notion. Flasks are a bit too powerful right now even without pathfinder.

I don't think the ability to leech all of your HP with vaal pact should exist either, there is a leech cap built into the regular leech mechanics for a reason.

In what way does this affect whether OHKO is better than CB or freezing? OP classes being OP doesn't justify OHKO in favor of other, better mechanics. You SHOULD be able to become immune to freezing and bleed temporarily, but those flasks should not be spammable nor should they last as long as they do on a pathfinder. It doesn't change the fact that OHKO is ALSO stupid.

Let's not pretend here that POE isn't a broken pile in 1000 different ways. GGG's inability to balance mechanics and builds has led us to a state where EVERYTHING is broken. But one thing being broken doesn't justify something else also being broken. Fixing the game should be the priority.

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ScrotieMcB wrote:

This means an ARPG should use a wide array of telegraph times and damage amounts, with the least telegraphed dealing the least damage per hit and the most telegraphed dealing the most damage per hit.

Yes, but those larger hits should not have a base damage value of 13k ehp. If you take such a hit the damage should indicate that you don't want to take that hit again, but it should not outright kill you. It should force you to rethink your strategy and understand that if you continue eating those hits, you will run out of flask or die or be forced to abort. It should not be an instant death for any non-glass build, and CERTAINLY shouldn't be a 13k ehp burst. 52k+ base damage is fucking absurd regardless of whether a telegraph exists or not.

You also haven't explained why a tank shouldn't be able to facetank content if he has ONLY invested in tank. What is the purpose of being tanky if everything can still one shot you? Please justify that logic.

I actually took the time to read this paragraph but you still haven't justified the need for OHKO over other better mechanics, which is the only thing you can do that will convince me or anyone else that OHKO is needed in POE.

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ScrotieMcB wrote:

I wonder what was said to provoke the deletion of posts. Although if outright deleted, I guess I can assume there was zero content of merit... right?

The post that was deleted basically just said that you responded too fast for me to finish my editing, but yes deleting it was justifiable as it didn't contain any useful contribution really.

EDIT: Oh my post is still there, idk what was deleted then

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Jgizle wrote:

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Fruz wrote:

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Jgizle wrote:

Just pointing out the player only had 1 debuff when they died, enfeeble, which does nothing for defense. It is a reason he died though, as he was doing a lot less damage.

The player probably didn't have max fire resist (DD damage is fire). I have never died instantly to DD but thats specific to my character.

Side note: many boses can 1 shot even if you have insane hp, armor, or es. This guy was reckless and should have played safe.

You do not seem to know how DD works ... are you aware that the damage scales with the health of the corpse ? ...


There should probably be a telegraphed thing, that takes a considerable amount of time ( linked to the damage ) for DD.
That was, "normal" DD would trigger almost instantly, while something that BS would have an actual telegraphed animation.




PS :

If PoE was fully designed to allow any kind of connection on earth to have a good gaming experience, it would be shit, period.

I know how DD works this players defenses are just trash. I can face tank that DD explosion no problem, I can face tank Shaper. Maybe if the player actually used their brain they wouldn't have died.

This is not a "1 shot mechanics are stupid" issue, It's a bad game play gets you killed issue. Only the player can solve that.

As soon as he saw Kalria using desecrate he should have known DD was going to happen, only DD users use desecrate. At this point he should have ran away and used a portal to get Abyssal Cry which prevents any corpses from being created when you kill anything, meaning no boss body to DD to begin with. Even so, the player could have survived the DD on just the boss corpse if he moved away from the other corpses, as the boss also spawns level 82 minions.

I don't know any one who fights a boss for the first time and just zergs it. He went balls to the wall and is surprised he got wrecked. He had more than enough DPS to wreck the boss, he could have played much better, and this is the sacrifice for not doing so.

This or just have 100% fire res which is easy for pathfinder with her flask buffs (saffels, pof ect) and take no damage whatsoever from DD regardless of boss HP. But that gets in the way of all-dps-all-the-time Zerg mode....Homie didnt even have a fire flask.

I played BV all last league and one thing i learned over the course of that 3 months...
You dont stand in the same spot just piling on stacks too long EVER. Especially on bosses.
You always need to be moving. that's why WBs is so strong for things like this. You get in with your max stacks chip away and get out. Rinse and repeat. that's the thing with BV its basically a Melee Spell.
You have to get in close to do your work. AOE helps but for bosses a lot of times to speed things up especially on more dangerous bosses you even gimp yourself on that to make it go faster with things like Conc. But i also noticed this was a double boss map so if the boss has DD and you kill one of them the other is still alive so he can proc his DD. With the exception of Malachi the second i deal the last bit of damage i WB out.. This player uses Flame Dash which for me it is a bit less reliable but will still suit the same purpose. IDK i play a bit different i try to move around.. my logic.. its always harder to hit a moving target then a sitting duck. id rather take a little longer than die. Even playing Melee i stick and move alot even the tankiest builds ive ever made cant stand their ground in some situations in this game.

IDK then again everything isn't about speed to me it more about trying my best not to lose 10% more exp... Especially on the boss which tends to be some of the biggest chances to get killed. It was pretty close though from when the boss died and the DD proced so IDK if he could have FD out in time.. WBs would have probably got him out in time with enough APS but it was close. You live, you die, you learn. And then some of us learn from others like i did here... now i know when i go to do this boss what to expect and lookout for.

Ive learned this league that ALOT of bosses have been changed drastically from mechanics to the map having completely different bosses and mechanics. Its nice, new, and fresh and gives me something new to learn. Every map ive run this league for the first time gets taken slow and try to take in everything i can about it as i go. Thats after all how we got all the old maps down to a science to the point of boredom because we knew everything there is to know and we could do everything without sound or queues because we did it so many times. Now everything is different and nothing can be underestimated in its power. Seems they have added alot more mistake punishments to boss encounters in the form of one shots as well. Most are ok once you learn and know what to do to avoid them.. some not so much and feel a bit unfair.. or maybe we just need to learn how to avoid them still. Bosses also have ALOT more crit than normal mobs to my understanding which im a bit on the fence about myself if thats a good thing or a bad thing... But im sure ill make my mind up once i get my hands on that new 3.6K armour chest ive been eyeballing since the day i seen it. Everything else i need is ready too just need that chest now. cant wait.

I also have to give my hats off to the HC guys who are still playing HC right now... Ive run into so many new things that i pretty much had to die atleast once i figure out what was going on (Racecourse comes to mind) that if i was a HC only player trying to learn all these new things blind.. im sure its very frustrating especially when you learn something that come from the result of a death like this... You cant just go right back and try again.. You have start ALL over. Work your way back for that second try. Thats pretty HC in my book. If i did play HC i would have a finger on a logout key at all times. And wouldn't give a shit what anyone thought about it either. Maybe its just dont have the time to burn like that having a job and family and all that good stuff. Guess i make the most of the time i do have. \m/

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Demonoz wrote:

If i did play HC i would have a finger on a logout key at all times. And wouldn't give a shit what anyone thought about it either. Maybe its just dont have the time to burn like that having a job and family and all that good stuff. Guess i make the most of the time i do have. \m/

That's the thing about this game, so many times where having your finger on the logout key doesn't help because of sudden 52k damage out of nowhere. That shit only hurts the game.

There are lots of underused good mechanics in this game like necromancers or high-life + life regen combo where you have to be dealing enough damage or you can't kill them. Proximity shield is a good mechanic too. BC and freeze are both good mechanics. Far shot COULD be good, but the problem with far shot is you get hit before you realize it's there. A couple small tweaks would make far shot great.

What's not a good mechanic is bosses dealing instantly 13k ehp just because you happen to be in melee range. How about instead of straight up SHITTING on melee just put a reverse proximity shield on the mob to force melee out? Why does melee have to CONSTANTLY move to range to avoid instant death? This shit is fucking stupid and it's part of the reason I refuse to play POE right now

I did explain tanking, Legatus, but let me try another way.

Imagine a linear scale it tankiness. 0 would be "must manually avoid literally everything" aka CI+EB mode. 100 would be "never needs to manually avoid anything," aka pop flasks for immortality mode.

The desirable design never allows 100 to be reached, because there always needs to be some point in improving further. Once you give a player 100, you can't give them 101 - or more precisely, it wouldn't be any type of practical improvement.

Like ALL damage, I think one-shots should be telegraphed, and in their case VERY well telegraphed. But if you let players reach a point where nothing can one-shot them, they have freeze/stun immunity, they have good healing, etc, then you've maxed out on tanking rewards. As I said earlier, you've given away all the carrots.

Investing heavily in tanking should mean you can facetank almost everything in the game, but it shouldn't mean you can facetank actually everything in the game.

Why? That's just your opinion and you have no justification for that opinion. It's just what you think and I do not agree.

Furthermore, your opinion doesn't even make any sense because by the time you reach low to mid 90s and have nearly perfectly rolled gear in every slot, you've already given away all the carrots. Whether someone can tank the rest of the game or not isn't relevant, the character has progressed as far as he can go.

Investing FULLY into tanking, IMO, should mean that your character is a tank and functions like one. Should you be able to AFK in front of every boss? Maybe not, but you certainly shouldn't be at risk of dying instantly from full health to any mechanic, and it should take A LOT to bring you down. A lot as in, you'd have to literally search the game for adequate damage and possibly not find it, and even if you did you'd have to intentionally be creative in finding ways to get killed. That's what tanking means.

Currently what we have is, players spend all their points into defense and get one-shotted anyways by some random bear with the help of an aura and a curse on a damage mod map. Which is why we are in offscreen dps meta.

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Legatus1982 wrote:

Furthermore, your opinion doesn't even make any sense because by the time you reach low to mid 90s and have nearly perfectly rolled gear in every slot, you've already given away all the carrots. Whether someone can tank the rest of the game or not isn't relevant, the character has progressed as far as he can go.

Let's not assume the passive tree should be without meaningful choice. If a player could Regret a DPS node to pick up a tankiness node, then there should be a balance to that choice.