"GGG considers it impossible for melee to reach t15 "

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ScrotieMcB wrote:

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Legatus1982 wrote:

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ScrotieMcB wrote:

GGG, better stop developing new mechanics. Legatus says we don't need more than two mechanics for anything.

Ok so basically you know you have no logical basis for your argument so you have resorted to making things up for personal attacks

I do have a basis, but spelling it out would kill the humor.

Fuck it. You're asking how OHKOs are a better mechanic than, say, freezes. I'll say right now, I think freeze is a pretty righteous mechanic. But it's really irrelevant, because we're not comparing freeze and OHKOs directly. We're comparing a game using a smaller variety of mechanics to create dangerous situations, versus a game using a larger variety (ex: OHKO and freeze).

So, to take your argument to its logical conclusion, new mechanics can't be added for variety unless each is individually better than a mechanic we have now. Hence joke.

Uh that's just an out and out lie and you fucking know it. Your straw grasping has really reached new levels, even a child can tell you this is false.

Having a fair variety of mechanics and having ohko are not inclusive by requirement, stop acting like a fucking child and admit the truth.

You've been asking over and over "how's it better than freeze?" Why ask if it isn't relevant to discussion? You've been using logical fallacies all over the place, and when called out you deny what you did.

When properly telegraphed and with a system to logout laggers instead of killing them, any amount of damage in a single hit is fair. Basically, monsters should have a certain baseline DPS, with a variety of attack speeds, and thus a varied damage-per-hit.

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ScrotieMcB wrote:

You've been asking over and over "how's it better than freeze?" Why ask if it isn't relevant to discussion? You've been using logical fallacies all over the place, and when called out you deny what you did.

When properly telegraphed and with a system to logout laggers instead of killing them, any amount of damage in a single hit is fair. Basically, monsters should have a certain baseline DPS, with a variety of attack speeds, and thus a varied damage-per-hit.

In what way is this a logical fallacy Einstein?

Here is the flow of debate so far:
ScrotieMcB: ohko is good because poe needs lethal damage
Me: damage can be lethal without OHKO, see cb or freeze
ScrotieMcB: poe needs more than two mechanics lol
Me: uh the number of mechanics is not limited by the number of ohko it contains
ScrotieMcB: THAT'S A LOGICAL FALLACY OMFG

Sure it is dude, you can start making sense any time now

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Legatus1982 wrote:

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ScrotieMcB wrote:

You're asking how OHKOs are a better mechanic than, say, freezes. I'll say right now, I think freeze is a pretty righteous mechanic. But it's really irrelevant, because we're not comparing freeze and OHKOs directly. We're comparing a game using a smaller variety of mechanics to create dangerous situations, versus a game using a larger variety (ex: OHKO and freeze).

So, to take your argument to its logical conclusion, new mechanics can't be added for variety unless each is individually better than a mechanic we have now.

Uh that's just an out and out lie and you fucking know it. Your straw grasping has really reached new levels, even a child can tell you this is false.

Having a fair variety of mechanics and having ohko are not inclusive by requirement, stop acting like a fucking child and admit the truth.

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Legatus1982 wrote:

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ScrotieMcB wrote:

You've been asking over and over "how's it better than freeze?" Why ask if it isn't relevant to discussion? You've been using logical fallacies all over the place, and when called out you deny what you did.

When properly telegraphed and with a system to logout laggers instead of killing them, any amount of damage in a single hit is fair. Basically, monsters should have a certain baseline DPS, with a variety of attack speeds, and thus a varied damage-per-hit.

BUT FUCKING WHY? WHY is ohko better to you than CB? I'm STILL FUCKING WAITING for EVEN ONE REASON

Open your eyes, mate.

Good edit sniping dude what are you the fucking fbi

It took me a second to realize we're already well past the shit you are posting, please follow the damn flow of conversation

And you still haven't provided a reason yet so idk what the meme is even about

There should exist hits telegraphed SO long and which deal SO much damage that everyone, even the tankiest of the tanky, sidesteps it. Furthermore, this telegraphs sound be a somewhat common thing - maybe 1-3 monsters per area. There shouldn't be a character which literally facetanks the entire game, because not responding to threats destroys the positioning component of the game.

Avoiding highly telegraphed one-shots is also a significant bot programming challenge.

Regarding the OP, I think the fix is add a two-second "summoning" animation to the second boss spawn, during which time they are immune but cannot act. This still threatens an OHKO but gives sufficient telegraph time to allow movement without forcing melee characters to use ranged skills for the kill. It also would give ranged players two seconds of eye candy while they're waiting for the second fight to start.

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ScrotieMcB wrote:

There should exist hits telegraphed SO long and which deal SO much damage that everyone, even the tankiest of the tanky, sidesteps it. Furthermore, this telegraphs sound be a somewhat common thing - maybe 1-3 monsters per area. There shouldn't be a character which literally facetanks the entire game, because not responding to threats destroys the positioning component of the game.

Avoiding highly telegraphed one-shots is also a significant bot programming challenge.

Regarding the OP, I think the fix is add a two-second "summoning" animation to the second boss spawn, during which time they are immune but cannot act. This still threatens an OHKO but gives sufficient telegraph time to allow movement without forcing melee characters to use ranged skills for the kill. It also would give ranged players two seconds of eye candy while they're waiting for the second fight to start.

You're still dancing around the question and refusing to answer.

First this is your opinion not a fact, second I've shown you can still die and combat bots without ohko, and third why should a character built only to tank that has no dps still be forced to avoid hits?

It's your logic that crafted the clear speed meta because people know no character can tank the damage, it's killing the game, and it's factually untrue in the first place. It's about the single stupidest thought that gets repeated on these forums because it isn't even a debatable issue, it's flat out stupidity and intentionality contradicting the facts.

There are still bots all over poe, let's not pretend ohko is somehow stemming the tide of bots. Your points are just factually false IN SEVERAL WAYS mind you

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Legatus1982 wrote:

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ScrotieMcB wrote:

You've been asking over and over "how's it better than freeze?" Why ask if it isn't relevant to discussion? You've been using logical fallacies all over the place, and when called out you deny what you did.

When properly telegraphed and with a system to logout laggers instead of killing them, any amount of damage in a single hit is fair. Basically, monsters should have a certain baseline DPS, with a variety of attack speeds, and thus a varied damage-per-hit.

In what way is this a logical fallacy Einstein?

Here is the flow of debate so far:
ScrotieMcB: ohko is good because poe needs lethal damage
Me: damage can be lethal without OHKO, see cb or freeze
ScrotieMcB: poe needs more than two mechanics lol
Me: uh the number of mechanics is not limited by the number of ohko it contains
ScrotieMcB: THAT'S A LOGICAL FALLACY OMFG

Sure it is dude, you can start making sense any time now

Ask a Pathfinder how dangerous CB and Freeze are... he might have not even noticed they exist. You can be immune to Freeze and CB, you can't do a high damage hit. Of course players will try to get more HP than any hit can deal, but that might not be successful (or we wouldn't have this thread).

Freezes don't kill you. And with your argument that you shouldn't die to lags how should a freeze kill you if it basically is like a lag. A 1second freeze is exactly the same as a 1second lagspike. Although of course you cannot get a flask that removes lag and makes you invulnerable to it. But in general Freezing someone and arguing it is dangerous means he has no defense against it, otherwise it is not dangerous and in that moment it is exactly like lag.

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First this is your opinion not a fact, second I've shown you can still die and combat bots without ohko, and third why should a character built only to tank that has no dps still be forced to avoid hits?

How do you plan to kill a permanenlty flasked BV Pathfinder with stun immunity? He is immune to bleed, freeze and shock and likely even curses. He regains full HP every 0,5 seconds. Freeze and CB are very bad examples. He might die to Volatiles, he might die to DD, he might die to a buffed up Vaal Smash. The only other way to kill him would be to damage him without an enemy present, which would be a terrible mechanic, because there shouldn't be something killing you that you cannot attack or move away from.

What pushes a clearspeed meta is: kills give loot and XP. Therefore, more kills per unit time is more reward per unit time.

What pushes tankiness is: incoming monster damage and the penalty for dying. Taking damage itself has no penalty, so tankiness is encouraged until it avoids death, then discouraged past that.

It's possible to design this on a static level with unavoidable damage mechanics. For example, have reflected damage and look, everyone uses life leech or some other bypass to tank it. But there's no build diversity in that, just build requirements. Untelegraphed damage is poor design because it flat-out requires a certain amount of certain tankiness choices.

Better design method: use human reaction time. This varies from person to person. Attacks with very high telegraph time can be manually avoided by anyone; attacks with very low telegraph time can only be manually avoided by those with epic mouse skills. And a whole continuum of possibilities in between.

The higher your piloting skill, the more you should be pushed to maximize your clearspeed and manually dodge incoming telegraphed damage instead of taking it. The lower your piloting skill, the more you should be pushed to be tanky to withstand incoming telegraphs you're unable to avoid, at the cost of clearspeed. Tanky builds should be flat-out easier to play - Easy Mode, even - but less rewarding in loot and XP per unit time.

This encourages the development of piloting skill (to increase loot and XP reward) and makes piloting skill is a relevant factor in build choice, creating a truly diverse meta. Player A playing Player B’s build might die all the time and get salty, and Player B playing Player A's build would get less loot and XP than they're used to and feel bored.

This means an ARPG should use a wide array of telegraph times and damage amounts, with the least telegraphed dealing the least damage per hit and the most telegraphed dealing the most damage per hit.

What's important here is: further investment in tankiness at the cost of clearspeed should as much as possible provide reward in the form of being able to ignore more telegraphs. The design MUST maintain incentive. Once you reach the point of no OHKOs, there's basically no incentive for players to invest further; you've given away all the carrots and have none left to give. (This is true regarding the clearspeed extreme as well.)

In a game with no intention to expand, I might say perfect would be giving away the very last carrot when a player has gone 100% full perfect tank - all the defense passives, perfect defense gear. But that's a stunningly difficult design to achieve because it means the designers need to know for certain the most tankiness possible given the tools available to players; this is essentially impossible, because designers are a small team trying to create a puzzle, while the Internet has thousands of dedicated puzzle-breakers, so they don't have time to solve their puzzle themselves. It also would mean changing player defensive tools every time new, harder-hitting content is released.

It's much wiser for designers to just never give away all the carrots - meaning there are some very, very telegraphed attacks which kill literally everyone hit by them.