"GGG considers it impossible for melee to reach t15 "

In a game where there really is no such thing as a "healer"... there is also no such thing as a "tank".

And then people wonder why so many builds play ranged with huge life or ES pools. You either pool ES and suffer DPS or pool life with decent DPS, but get one-shotted more often.

Yes, burst damage like this is silly, but let's look at everything here...

1.) T15 Overgrown Ruin, two bosses (ie: 4 bosses here), and reflect elemental damage 18%. Rest of the mods do not touch defenses. Not horrible, but still a risk with four bosses. If they really wanted to race on the ladder, they should just skip this double boss fight. Even without double, one or both of the bosses could have detonate dead. I know I would have skipped that. Why risk the corpse explosion burst damage from detonate dead? You don't have to be picky about content during most progression, but at T15 you better know your risks.

2.) User is ekunholy: https://www.pathofexile.com/account/view-profile/ekunholy. Character is unholyessenceneverlucky, CI/GR/VP build with BV. Discipline, but no Vaal Discipline. Their characters and build are public.

3.) 12K ES is not very high for a level 95 CI build, but then again this is Essence Hardcore on the ladder, so they're rushing to progress and not getting the best gear for this. Look at the Vaal Regalia they have: only 735 ES after 43% increased ES. That's crap for a CI build. But they have a 6L. I'd dump the 6L and DPS for 100-something % increased ES on that with a crafted VR. And look at their other gear: they're trying to boost spell block chance instead of focusing on their ES count. This might be nit-picking, and we know it's not possible to get some of the best gear/stats when in a league, but still, if you don't roll with some impressive stuff, you don't facetank double warband bosses T15 with 12K ES for a CI build in hardcore. That's stupid. I'm not even at that level in my gameplay yet, but I certainly know better because burst damage at end-game is ridiculously powerful.

May be I'm missing something? But to go in here while in hardcore, and expect to facetank... well, as one poster put it: well deserved. Now is this sort of burst damage fair? Everywhere else in the game, I'd say no, but at T15 (and now T16), yes. Otherwise the ladder would be far less challenging.

OP has incorrect title: nothing to do with melee, and everything to do with craptastic tactics and less than optimal gear/stats running T15 double bosses.

Well the amount of ES doesn't actually matter for this situation. It is mainly based on the assertion if you should go in there.

Because detonate dead on a boss deals a shitton of damage and is unsurvivable, since it is secondary damage it is also undodge and unblockable. The new Essence Effects have a chance of avoiding the damage but its rather low.

The question here is more like could it has been avoided. The answer of course is no if you assume that he might not have known the boss. Because as soon as he kills the one the other pops up with DD. So unless he nows that this happens there is no way to avoid it from happening. But if he knew it happened he could have easily brought some distance between him and the boss and killed him from a bit further away (with Cull or even the increased AoE gem might be enough on Bladevortex).

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Emphasy wrote:

Well the amount of ES doesn't actually matter for this situation. It is mainly based on the assertion if you should go in there.

Because detonate dead on a boss deals a shitton of damage and is unsurvivable, since it is secondary damage it is also undodge and unblockable. The new Essence Effects have a chance of avoiding the damage but its rather low.

Agreed, to a point. But having 12k ES and doing T15 map bosses? I mean, come on, 18 or 20K is the top end of a CI/GR/ZO/whatever build. I understand this is a league character and rushing for ladder, but I wouldn't take a melee 12k ES character against quad warband leaders. And if I *had* to, for sake of atlas progression, I'd either a.) re-roll that double boss map, or b.) clear it very, very cautiously. This guy is playing hardcore. Come on, that's stupid to go in there and try to facetank.

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Emphasy wrote:

The question here is more like could it has been avoided. The answer of course is no if you assume that he might not have known the boss. Because as soon as he kills the one the other pops up with DD.

But you KNOW that the possibility exists to get a boss with detonate dead! Who runs T15 maps without knowing ahead of time or researching the bosses, ESPECIALLY if you're playing hardcore. Let's get real here. This isn't a "casual" player. This is a ladder, hardcore league player, situated in the top 20-something of the ladder.

EDIT: Just think, if the player decided to swap in some skills for using up corpses and didn't facetank when the boss was low on life, he could have easily survived.

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cipher_nemo wrote:

But you KNOW that the possibility exists to get a boss with detonate dead! Who runs T15 maps without knowing ahead of time or researching the bosses, ESPECIALLY if you're playing hardcore. Let's get real here. This isn't a "casual" player. This is a ladder, hardcore league player, situated in the top 20-something of the ladder.

EDIT: Just think, if the player decided to swap in some skills for using up corpses and didn't facetank when the boss was low on life, he could have easily survived.

You can justify anything like that, both in game and real life.

By that logic you should wear all elemental resist flasks all the time because there is a possiblity a monster will have extra elemental damage of a type on it.

Not to mention that what you saying is a big FU to all the melee players out there who actually want to engage in melee combat.
Want to do a boss? Go ranged, melee isn't allowed in these parts.

Sorry if some of us do not share this train of thought, people who think like you probably think that the cancer that is Volatile Blood is a fine mechanic also, even though it bypasses half the defense mechanics in the game and explodes instantly (pretty much like detonate dead does).

Next time you leap slam and 1 shot a volatile zombie on the ground who had substantial physical damage aura in a -max map let me know how it feels.

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Mannoth wrote:

Not to mention that what you saying is a big FU to all the melee players out there who actually want to engage in melee combat.
Want to do a boss? Go ranged, melee isn't allowed in these parts.

I play a melee character too, just entering end-game standard from Prophecy.

You're equating facetanking to melee. You don't need to just stand in one spot like a freakin' totem to melee. You have to move too.

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Mannoth wrote:

Next time you leap slam and 1 shot a volatile zombie on the ground who had substantial physical damage aura in a -max map let me know how it feels.

Won't ever happen, and if by some odd fluke it does, I certainly won't be playing a hardcore league with it. I'm not going to defend every single melee skill and build out there, but melee is still fine. Tired of the melee drama queens.

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cipher_nemo wrote:

I play a melee character too, just entering end-game standard from Prophecy.

You're equating facetanking to melee. You don't need to just stand in one spot like a freakin' totem to melee. You have to move too.

How do you plan to kill a boss with a melee char and stay at a ranged distance at the same time?
Ranged skills or totems?

The instakill on the video happened pretty much instantly after the boss was killed, how do you suggest real melee players deal with these situations?

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cipher_nemo wrote:

Won't ever happen, and if by some odd fluke it does, I certainly won't be playing a hardcore league with it. I'm not going to defend every single melee skill and build out there, but melee is still fine. Tired of the melee drama queens.

How is melee fine if the said scenario can happen?

The types of melee builds that are viable by your standards are the one that hit from range or use totems.

And I say this as a long time melee player who played every single melee skill out there except for Wild Strike / Elemental Hit and Frost Blades (I still have my Glacial Hammer marauder from Talisman even).

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How is melee fine if the said scenario can happen?

The types of melee builds that are viable by your standards are the one that hit from range or use totems.

And I say this as a long time melee player who played every single melee skill out there except for Wild Strike / Elemental Hit and Frost Blades (I still have my Glacial Hammer marauder from Talisman even).

Well Volatiles to have a certain oneshot prevention mechanic for those cases. If there is a zombie that gets oneshot by your leap slam it doesn't have enough HP to kill you instantly.

Buried Volatiles are still an issue, but actually only the golems have high enough HP to be really terrible, the others need some nasty mods and usually when I have a -max resist map it makes me damn careful what I do. Not only because of Volatiles but basically because of everything else. Jumping to or near the edge of the screen could bring all kind of deadlyness to my face, so I rather walk in those scenarios, because it makes it easier to back up.

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The instakill on the video happened pretty much instantly after the boss was killed, how do you suggest real melee players deal with these situations?

Well what does real melee mean? If you suggest a real melee player should never use the option to maybe cull an enemy from afar that is not the case. He could have dealt all damage in that fight with Dual Strike and backed of to avoid the explosion by using a Warchief totem or just anything.

The same argument is true for ranged. If you decide to not close in against proximity shield enemies because you are "true ranged" you will fail. That is why there are options for Melees to deal damage from afar and Warchief is actually a great option to do so because it also boosts your own damage.

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Emphasy wrote:

If there is a zombie that gets oneshot by your leap slam it doesn't have enough HP to kill you instantly.

Get back at me when you learn how Volatile Blood calculates it's damage.

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Emphasy wrote:

Well what does real melee mean?

The definition of melee is fighting in extremely close combat.

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Emphasy wrote:

The same argument is true for ranged. If you decide to not close in against proximity shield enemies because you are "true ranged" you will fail.

Except you can spot a proximity shield from miles away, and they do not deal damage just force you into close combat.

Equivalent to a proximity shield would be a mechanic that makes enemy resit damage (or be immune to it) depending on their distance from you (something like a reverse point blank on your damage).

It is nowhere equivalent to getting blow to pieces because you were in close range without time to react.

Not to mention that when I play a ranged character a proximity shield doesn't mean I need a secondary skill just to kill the enemy.

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Emphasy wrote:

He could have dealt all damage in that fight with Dual Strike and backed of to avoid the explosion by using a Warchief totem or just anything.

That is all fine and dandy, except that ranged users do not need to devote an entire 4+ links in order to deal with such enemies.

Why does melee need the socket/gem tax in order to perform and ranged users don't?

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cipher_nemo wrote:

Agreed, to a point. But having 12k ES and doing T15 map bosses? I mean, come on, 18 or 20K is the top end of a CI/GR/ZO/whatever build. I understand this is a league character and rushing for ladder, but I wouldn't take a melee 12k ES character against quad warband leaders. And if I *had* to, for sake of atlas progression, I'd either a.) re-roll that double boss map, or b.) clear it very, very cautiously. This guy is playing hardcore. Come on, that's stupid to go in there and try to facetank.

I'm not sure where you got the idea that 12k is not enough buffer, but life based characters top out around 8k and one of the two top EHC 100 players is using shavs, with an ES of 428 and has an alphas howl, so probably isn't much higher than 10-12kish himself if that. He has a base ES of around 1400-1500.

I can see you're used to standard league EHP values but you need to understand how temp leagues play. Nobody gets 18-20k in temp leagues, that's not how this game works. 13k is a TON of EHP against elemental damage in a hardcore temp league. Also, neither of your characters have anything resembling 13k life or ES as far as I can see, so IDK what you're even going on about.

Also, melee characters don't have another option that allows them to clear as well as ranged besides facetanking. You want every melee to drop a totem every time a rare mob might die? Then also drop a totem every time a big hitting rare appears on screen?
Why don't you take your caster or bow character and run into melee range FOR EVERY SINGLE RARE AND UNIQUE MOB IN THE FUCKING GAME. Sounds fun? No? Why not? It just means you build your entire character to do ranged damage and then were forced to make it melee. What's the big deal?
BTW, most people don't consider reave to be melee. It is at best pseudo-melee and at worst has better range than some casters/bows.

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Emphasy wrote:

The same argument is true for ranged. If you decide to not close in against proximity shield enemies because you are "true ranged" you will fail. That is why there are options for Melees to deal damage from afar and Warchief is actually a great option to do so because it also boosts your own damage.

Except the obvious fact that proximity shield doesn't instantly kill your character for failing to move into melee. See the diff friend?

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Legatus1982 wrote:

"

Well deserved.

There is nothing well deserved about taking 13k damage in one hit, ever. Period.

I don't care how inattentive he was, how many mistakes he made, or what the circumstances were - this kind of damage output in a single hit is inexcusable.

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Further, the fact that:
A. people are defending this kind of blatant stupidity in damage output of enemies and
B. even moreso as an anti-melee mechanic

Shows that, sadly as much as I want to see open discussion, there is a large percentage of the population that does not have the intelligence and/or sense needed to be discussing balance on these forums.

The ironically funny fact that it was a blade vortexer that died is just... not really as relevant as the other facts.

The poe community is pure cancer and most players are fucking awful yet they act like they are elite hardasses. There is absolutely way to many one shots in this game its beyond rediculous. Basically why the secret formula consists of cap resists, get some phys mitigation and than stack nothing but life and damage. The game has become so one dimensional and the community keeps making it worse.