Protecting your "PRECIOUS" economy ain't working so give up and fix desync instead

Of course now that everyone with desync has great connections we are all running torrents. Lol.

I can't make this stuff up I really can't

"

Arrowneous wrote:

I was very disheartened to read this Reddit post yesterday: hookeysconfession.

This thread is still going even after it originated from the confession of a hacker?

No doubt hes a stand up guy with everything to lose and an impeccable reputation.

He wouldn't make shit up just out of spite now would he?

Peace,

-Boem-

"

Boem wrote:

"

Arrowneous wrote:

I was very disheartened to read this Reddit post yesterday: hookeysconfession.

This thread is still going even after it originated from the confession of a hacker?

No doubt hes a stand up guy with everything to lose and an impeccable reputation.

He wouldn't make shit up just out of spite now would he?

Peace,

-Boem-

The story actually has very little to do with this conversation, but thanks for the random pointless interjection

"

LostKavi wrote:

I stopped reading here. I mean - I already knew you were going downhill after the first dozen words, but I gave you the benefit of the doubt.

In a game designed around customization and 'doing ya own thang', to say "If you want to have a functional player experience, go copy someone else" seems a bit contrary.

no, in a game where you have heavy customisation if you are incapable of making a good build yourself, have absolutely no grasp of what a good build is and sit around on the forums all day complaining that your disaster of a character is dying all the time + you are so bad at this game you dont even realise its your own fault then yes, you need to go follow a guide to learn the basics of making a build.


Stop reading where ever you want m8, if you are able to do well with your own builds and dont have massive issues with desync etc then power to you my friend, keep doing what you are doing. If you have issues though you might want to consider reading what I have to say as theres more substance in it than 95% of the trolls and QQers in these threads, anyone who really knows this game knows what I am saying is correct, so if its news to you then thats probably a sign you should be taking notes.

"

Snorkle_uk wrote:

no, in a game where you have heavy customisation if you are incapable of making a good build yourself, have absolutely no grasp of what a good build is and sit around on the forums all day complaining that your disaster of a character is dying all the time + you are so bad at this game you dont even realise its your own fault then yes, you need to go follow a guide to learn the basics of making a build.


Stop reading where ever you want m8, if you are able to do well with your own builds and dont have massive issues with desync etc then power to you my friend, keep doing what you are doing. If you have issues though you might want to consider reading what I have to say as theres more substance in it than 95% of the trolls and QQers in these threads, anyone who really knows this game knows what I am saying is correct, so if its news to you then thats probably a sign you should be taking notes.

It seems like you're falling into some kind of false dichotomy between people who desync and people who aren't good at the game. I run plenty of good builds, and some of my builds turn out poorly (experimental ones in particular), but it doesn't matter how I build, I experience desync VERY regularly. It doesn't usually get me killed, but I feel cheated every time it does. THAT is what the problem here really is. That is why desync is so unhealthy for the game, and why it suppresses the player base from growing a lot.

"

Obliviongamer91 wrote:

Your unbelieving attitude upon hearing our problems is infuriating.
Why the hell would we ever lie about these things? For what purpose?
The performance issues aren't in town or during fights against a few trash mobs.
Whenever there are lots of particles, the performance just dips. Whenever a mtx demonstration dummy (or Rogue Exile, as some call them) spawns in a strongbox, there's a one second solid freeze.
PoE uses only one CPU core. In an age where most, if not all systems have multiple real cores.
It's like taking a big, American muscle car and disabling 6 pistons from it's engine.
And it's PoE's engine that's just not up to par.
Other games that perform horribly even on high-end systems are: Assassin's Creed: Unity, Dragon Age: Inquisition, Grand Theft Auto: IV, etc..., which are all poorly optimized.
[Edit: more bloody typos. Typing really isn't working very well today.]

 Hmm... I've never looked at my 4 cpu cores while PoE is running to see how many are in use. Is it true that PoE is only single threaded? We all now why GGG created their own game engine instead licensing a commercially available engine (such as the Unreal Engine) at the start due to very high cost. That would explain many/most of the fps performance drops with heavy particle effects if this game is only single threaded. I know that multi-threaded programming is a ton more complicated to coordinate the code threads (like a juggler, the more balls in the air the harder it is) and all but GGG will have to utilize our multi-core processors fully if we ever have a chance to have a better performing PoE client. That also explains why my oc'ed older dual core i5 plays PoE well. 3.8 GHz dual core speed beats a quad-core at a lower speed if PoE is only single threaded (1 core only).

Edit: We shouldn't have to buy a new Intel i5-4690 (or faster) processor and new motherboard just to play PoE. That really defeats Free-To-Play.

"

Legatus1982 wrote:

"

Boem wrote:

"

Arrowneous wrote:

I was very disheartened to read this Reddit post yesterday: hookeysconfession.

This thread is still going even after it originated from the confession of a hacker?

No doubt hes a stand up guy with everything to lose and an impeccable reputation.

He wouldn't make shit up just out of spite now would he?

Peace,

-Boem-

The story actually has very little to do with this conversation, but thanks for the random pointless interjection

 I started my thread with this to show everyone that GGG's stubborn adherence to their server/client programming model to keep all calculations protected from hackers (server side only) hasn't done well to protect their "precious" economy. After all, Chris explained that keeping everything server side is the only way to prevent most hacks and to that extent PoE is a game that is well protected. But due to a few bad apples (determined hackers) the PoE economy has been harmed badly so GGG hasn't succeeded with this server/client programming model from which high desync rates occur because "action prediction" just does not work well (with fast moving builds I'd say it's just a guesstimate by the server as to where my exile's position is at any time I'm moving).

 The confession of the /hideout exploit hacker was used to illustrate the point that just due to bugs the game economy can be harmed. While no one wants a repeat of the D3 hacking/botting disaster (I guess the hackers do), GGG must come up with better server/client simulations and figure out a way to protect the client code in real time from hackers and their cheat engine probing of the PoE client so that we can get to a much better game playing experience with very low desync.

Note: It is sad that when hookeysconfession found out this bug that he chose not to report it immediately to GGG so they could push out an emergency patch but instead used it for his own ill gotten gains and damaged the game economy, quit possibly badly. We will never know how many players have 1% off perfect gear that they bought from him. It's good that he got banned and I hope that he burned himself out completely and never wants to play PoE ever again.

GGG's system prevents hacks like "hey, server, I just found a mirror" or "I just moved to the map boss and one-shot it" or "I am dodging everything". Stuff like that. It doesn't prevent people from using overlays that allow them to use bots. Or do analyze the map information sent by the server once you enter a new area.
The story that has been linked in the OP is the result of a bug anyways. And the consequences are severe, no doubt.

Of course there are other client/server models that do not suffer from desync and offer an equal protection against the same hacks. However, I doubt that it is possible to change the network model at this point.

It would be nice if best if the most desync-prone things would be reworked. Make doors wider, remove ground clutter, don't allow monsters to move so fast that they desync themselves by running around, resync more often.

By the way, there is no point arguing whether desync is caused by the client's hardware/connection or not. If you guys bothered to read the manifesto it should be fairly obvious that desync is a result of GGG's engine decisions.

"

kruemel2222 wrote:

GGG's system prevents hacks like "hey, server, I just found a mirror" or "I just moved to the map boss and one-shot it" or "I am dodging everything". Stuff like that. It doesn't prevent people from using overlays that allow them to use bots. Or do analyze the map information sent by the server once you enter a new area.
The story that has been linked in the OP is the result of a bug anyways. And the consequences are severe, no doubt.

Of course there are other client/server models that do not suffer from desync and offer an equal protection against the same hacks. However, I doubt that it is possible to change the network model at this point.

It would be nice if best if the most desync-prone things would be reworked. Make doors wider, remove ground clutter, don't allow monsters to move so fast that they desync themselves by running around, resync more often.

By the way, there is no point arguing whether desync is caused by the client's hardware/connection or not. If you guys bothered to read the manifesto it should be fairly obvious that desync is a result of GGG's engine decisions.

Those would all be good fixes, but I am uncertain as to why people have the impression code can't be moved to the client. They are fully capable of doing it. Yes it would be a major undertaking but it is within their power and less work than making a new act I'm sure.

The main problem is that group play would see some weirdness, it would then be clients resyncing with each other but this is acceptable imo. Players would be able to trust what they see on their screen even if it's wrong because what they see is what matters.

Yes there will be hacks due to this. I really don't think it will be that big of a deal. The players like myself who just want to enjoy the game won't be turning cheats on. Take map hacking for example, some people use it but the majority do not because it just ruins the fun of the game.

Would this affect the economy? Yes it would, but botting ruined that a long time ago and you can't stop botting, not even if the game was entirely run from the server as a browser game.

"

Legatus1982 wrote:

Those would all be good fixes, but I am uncertain as to why people have the impression code can't be moved to the client. They are fully capable of doing it. Yes it would be a major undertaking but it is within their power and less work than making a new act I'm sure.

You can't just move code around. The netcode is one of the most basic things an online game needs, therefore, it has to be implemented deeply within the program. Other parts of the game rely on it. If you start to meddle with the netcode everything turns into a mess - the debugging work would be insane.

Make no mistake, don't compare that task to making a new act. It's more about making a new game.