Protecting your "PRECIOUS" economy ain't working so give up and fix desync instead

I was very disheartened to read this Reddit post yesterday: hookeysconfession.

 With such a logic flaw that PoE had and the fact that this flaw allowed for item and currency duping (good that it's fixed now) to go on and damage the "precious" PoE economy that GGG is trying to protect with their server and client game simulations designed such that the server is doing "Client-server Action Synchronisation" for which we get very high desync as a result, with hookeysconfession posting his exploit of the bug after he severely harmed the economy and finally got banned, and the recent spate of bans for anyone using it to get rich, it is very clear that GGG's original decision to keep all calculations server side and then update the client only every few seconds to maintain some semblance of "synchronization" (use this word with a grain of salt) is not working. Clearly, the "precious" PoE economy hasn't been protected by the server calculating everything critical such as monster position and movement and then gestimating which way and how far I am moving my +64% increased speed exile (I was up to +85% increased speed before my latest gear swap), it is way past time for GGG to rethink this and offload these calculations to the client and make the client the authority and update the server to reduce desync.

 Before everyone jumps on me and says that it will open the hacking exploit floodgates, think about it a moment. We all want reduced desync to minimize playing frustrations and desync deaths (I just suffered another one in the Sceptre of God zone opening a strongbox, clearly safely running away according to the view my client was displaying, and then about 2 seconds later when the client re-synced my view with what the server was simulating, it showed my exile standing right where I opened the strongbox surrounded by the mob and dead). We all agree with GGG that hacks are bad and ruins the game economy (we only need look at original D3 to know hacks and bots are bad). But since the PoE economy is already damaged (ruined possibly) by the duping exploit and who knows how many near perfect items were created by hookeysconfession and others using the exploit and then traded, there is no need to keep punishing us continually with high desync (Sceptre of God is an especially bad zone). Therefore, the PoE client should be authoritative in exile/mob movement and update the server. If GGG is afraid of client side code hacks then a code thread running in parallel with the position/movement threads that can compute a checksum on the fly and immediately halt the client if that doesn't match the pre-stored (server side only) code checksum (hash code) when the game code for the current patch was compiled. I have more cpu power in my computer than a 1980s Cray supercomputer and most of it's computational power is being wasted while the server simulation is being crushed to death with the current server/client model GGG is stubbornly adhering to. All the while everyone has to put up with high desync and many, many uncontrollable desync deaths. And no, telling me to "git gud" or "gear up better" isn't the problem and I shouldn't be required to only play tank builds that can take a beating just because the server has me in harms way when I only see that I successfully ran clear and evaded death.

 My current Torment League ice/puncture/tornado shot evasion ranger build I'm playing with very fast move speed is a blast to play but with my low "tankyness" (after all high evasion and speed is supposed to allow me to avoid taking damage by moving out of harms way) I'm wide open to a desync death all too easily. I shouldn't be required to sacrifice playing a super fun build just because GGG won't change their server/client programming model to minimize desync. That defeats the purpose of the passive tree and build diversity that makes PoE the best arpg currently (IMHO).
"You've got to grind, grind, grind at that grindstone..."
Necessity may be the mother of invention, but poor QoP in PoE is the father of frustration.

The perfect solution to fix Trade Chat:
www.pathofexile.com/forum/view-thread/2247070
Last edited by Arrowneous on Jan 25, 2015, 4:36:01 PM
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Support, it's done nothing to stop hacks and everything to hinder legitimate players.
"
Hemmingfish wrote:
Support, it's done nothing to stop hacks and everything to hinder legitimate players.


You seem to not understand what it helps prevent. All the "hacks" we have now are because that's all the information the client is given.

Any information that is given *will* be exploited.
"
Hemmingfish wrote:
Support, it's done nothing to stop hacks and everything to hinder legitimate players.


You seem to not understand what it helps prevent. All the "hacks" we have now are because that's all the information the client is given.

Any information that is given *will* be exploited.

E: and the duping that was found had NOTHING to do with the current client server trust situation.
"
SL4Y3R wrote:
"
Hemmingfish wrote:
Support, it's done nothing to stop hacks and everything to hinder legitimate players.


You seem to not understand what it helps prevent. All the "hacks" we have now are because that's all the information the client is given.

Any information that is given *will* be exploited.

E: and the duping that was found had NOTHING to do with the current client server trust situation.

 I clearly understand that the duping exploit was because of a logic flaw with the /hideout console command and not anything to do with the current server/client game code. The point I am making is that since there are flaws in PoE (anything this complex is bound to have some, just like our Windows OS) that because dedicated hackers that are determined to find ways to cheat no matter what the devs do that it is really bad form to stay with the current server/client model and continue to punish the 99.99% of PoE players that play within the game rules as GGG has defined them and don't cheat. This is the same feeling I had once in Middle School long ago when one student talked out of turn so the teacher punished the whole class. We have a few bad apples here in PoE and GGG is willing to punish everyone with their game engine that by the very definition of how the server does "action prediction" guarantees that we have high desync the faster our exile is. This has to be costing GGG 1000s of players and their mtx purchases and yet GGG is not willing to budge at all and allow the client to do more position and movement calculations and update the server instead of the other way around that is currently employed.

 I wish I had a video clip to show GGG just how bad my earlier desync death was. I deployed my arc totem near the strongbox, opened the box and ran back quickly, was well out of the mobs reach and out of harms way, was cursing the mob and about to start ice arrow shooting them (something like 3 seconds) and bam, the client re-syncs with the server and repositions me right at the strongbox and I'm dead from the mob. The server 100% failed to predict that I had run away to evade taking damage yet from my perspective all was looking good and safe. This was in the Scepter of God zone and I wasn't anywhere near a doorway so I shouldn't have had this happen to me yet the server simulation's "action prediction" failed spectacularly and cost me another 10% XP lost. I had zero indication that anything was amiss until the re-sync and my exile was instantly dead . This is not a rare event either, and with my current build high on evasion but low on armor I can't be beat on by a mob and survive. I'm sure everyone has suffered many desync deaths with no control over when it will happen. This kind of server/client programming all in the name of protecting the PoE economy does more long term damage than GGG will ever admit to. It frustrates and angers us all because of the frequency with which it occurs and tarnished the arpg community view of PoE and gives it a bad reputation. For those of us that choose to continue to play in spite of this major problem (hey GGG, the fact we're still here in spite of high desync should tell you that we like most of PoE and that you better do something soon before it's too late) every desync death feels like a hard slap in the face. I'm stubborn and put up with it but we should get better treatment from GGG (in the form of reduced desync) to acknowledge our loyalty in the face of this adversity.

 So yes, I know the server/client code in PoE has nothing to do with the recent /hideout exploit (that was just a very unfortunate bug) but just goes to show that GGG can't stop all persistent and dedicated hackers and shouldn't penalize everyone over a few bad persons.
"You've got to grind, grind, grind at that grindstone..."
Necessity may be the mother of invention, but poor QoP in PoE is the father of frustration.

The perfect solution to fix Trade Chat:
www.pathofexile.com/forum/view-thread/2247070
Last edited by Arrowneous on Jan 25, 2015, 8:34:18 PM
TWEE! TWEE! TWEE! TWEE! LOGICAL FALLACY! TWEE! TWEE!

Just because one glitch let a devestating duping bug through does NOT mean that we need to throw our hands up in the air, fuck everything and throw the baby out with the bathwater.

That's a false dichotomy.
Spoiler
(there's probably a more appropriate term for this fallacy, but that's the closest I'm getting right now)


While I'm pissed as all get out at desync, I do my best to mitigate it, and until PoE has a proper offline mode, I'm all for it if it keeps the worst of the offenders and hacks at bay. You are talking about opening an apocalyptic-sized floodgate there. Don't make us into the next D3 launch.


But seriously, GGG. Clean up your damn code. This desync issue is pretty rediculous.
"But we still had a lot of fun, please don't think this comes from hate.
We bitch because we like you and we want you to be great!" ~Miracle of Sound
Last edited by LostKavi on Jan 25, 2015, 10:36:14 PM
I mean, what you're talking about isn't only giving up on the economy, it's all competitive things in the game.

Races, ladders, challenge completion, pvp, and the economy that runs through all of those would all have to be discarded by GGG.
Last edited by pneuma on Jan 25, 2015, 10:35:02 PM
The tradeoffs GGG chose for their netcode were not optimal. The harm caused by desync is greater than many of the gained benefits.

However, I am skeptical that weakening anti-cheat would be the most expeditious solution to reducing desync. My expectation is that the high move speed of both players and mobs contributes more to desync than anything else, except perhaps collision of players among each other.
"
pneuma wrote:
I mean, what you're talking about isn't only giving up on the economy, it's all competitive things in the game.

Races, ladders, challenge completion, pvp, and the economy that runs through all of those would all have to be discarded by GGG.


Gee, wouldn't that be horrible ;)

Tell you what breaks my immersion 10000000x more than removing some particles? The game itself, in its current state. Races, ladders, challenges and pvp... Who cares? None of those are really relevant to PvE, just player feelings.
The police can't prevent every crime, so let's just get rid off it completely :^)
GGG banning all political discussion shortly after getting acquired by China is a weird coincidence.

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