Protecting your "PRECIOUS" economy ain't working so give up and fix desync instead

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goetzjam wrote:

Don't anyone tell legatus to play anything other then his dual wield dagger shadow, thats the only melee build he wants to play and he only wants to play it in HC league, even one as punishing as bloodlines. And legatus it isn't that you just "like" melee its that you won't play and variation to the build you want to play, if you would change it up perhaps the game would be more fun to you instead your doing the same thing over and over.

This is just factually garbage. You can go back multiple iterations of the build and see I've tried shields, es, evasion, ir, fast daggers, slow daggers, many different skill gems, none of this stuff works. And it's supposed to be the "op" melee builds. You were told this many times so at this point changing the facts to suit your case just makes you look like a troll.

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Ten_of_Swords wrote:

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Legatus1982 wrote:

Sc is not fun. I quit the game last time u tried sc. I don't know how else to explain that to you. And your suggestion, if it even worked, is not one you can apply globally to the entire games population. "Like melee? Better play sc" oh ok. Because lets just send half the population of hc into sc because ggg won't balance their game.

I would never play SC either, so I empathize with you if desync is that bad that you can’t play HC, but you have to realize that you are in a tiny minority if what you say true - or you are doing something wrong. It's not worth throwing a tantrum in the forums and calling other people liars who are clearly trying to help. Try a new ISP or play on a different computer, or move to a city that has fiber. Somehow you can get different results if there is a unknown connection problem. Back in the 90's I had five different dial-up ISP's at one time because some were better at various times of the day to play UO. I ran tracerouts and I saw varying results for all of them.

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Legatus1982 wrote:

And no, I don't care how you do the pseudo math, it will never be 1 ex per 30 hours and nobody will ever have 40ex in three days through normal legitimate means. To begin with nobody plays 30 hours straight so that logic isn't even feasible.

Just stop with this shit? We already explained to you how it can happen, no it’s not legitimate. Big fucking deal. There are only a few players that desperate and rich enough to pull something off like this. (I would still like to see a link or screenshots of this trade before I give it too much credence) you have to understand that players with great wealth can do pretty much what they want - yawn. what’s new? IMO its simply not an indication that the game is flawed or the economy is broken in any way.

I know a few people that I suspect use RMT or have 'connections' because they always have some top gear within the first two weeks of a challenge league that nobody could afford. You know what? They almost always die with that gear too and we all have a private laugh at their expense.

You may have explained it, but others are still arguing it can be done through legit means.

And telling me its my connection, again, the connection stats with trace ping and packet loss are already posted so you can stop with that.

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There's really no need to submit that kind of proof--LOTS of people have already reported similar experience and trial-and-error methods that failed to pan out. It's not because of their hardware or connection (in most cases). It's because the calculations have to wait for the server to tell the client where they 'actually' are. It's a backwards system.

Its the system we have, I am not asking people to submit proof that they have the issue, but rather that they have done something to try and improve it for themselves. We are all aware the the issue exsists for some while almost not affecting others. However, to come here and complain on the forums and NOT do anything to resolve the issue yourself or lesson the affects is asinine.

Thats like me going to McDonald's and getting a coffee, we know its hot but I want McDonalds to do something to make it specifically less hot for me without just waiting for it to cool down.

Do something, follow some of the recommended things, THEN come back and complain, otherwise you have NO RIGHT to complain as you aren't willing to do any of the things to make it less impactful on yourself. The problem exsists in YOUR situation, not mine, not GGG's yours. If you have the ability to have another ISP but don't try them thats YOUR fault, not mine, not GGG's. If you have a toaster that isn't good thats YOUR fault, not mine. Lastly if you don't do anything at all that is YOUR fault not GGG's and not mine.

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As for the Manifesto, that's a very old thread at this point, and just because they said A doesn't mean they can't change their mind to B to improve the game overall. Obviously, the system that allows desync doesn't actually achieve the goals it intended to, so GGG would be far better off just admitting that the experiment failed and put the player experience first.

They should have no reason to change there mind, its one of oldest dev manafistos they have. Compromising the game in order to lesson the effects that desync has on those players having issues is NOT something they want to do. The system actually does prevent SIGNIFCANT hacks from occuring, if players make the point its bad now, (which it isnt) it would only get worst, how is that worth a tradeoff because some players gameplay experience is subpar.

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Even if there's an effect on the economy, only Standard will be permanently effected since all the ladders reset regularly, and Ladder is where most of the player base is anyway. Yeah, it would kind of suck for Standard players, but they already have a shit economy to work with, so I don't think it's that much of a cost compared to the overall benefit to the health of the game.

The economy in standard is very much playable, to say otherwise is completely asinine. The only disadvantages standard provides vs the leagues are rares with good, but not great stats are worth less and non-legacy uniques sell for less then in the leagues, however chaos>exalt ratio is better, jews\fuses\alts > exalt ratio is better, almost every other aspect of the game in terms of economy is better in standard then it is in the leagues, players which don't know any better repeat things 1-2 people have stated without any valid stats to back it up. In addition last numbers we had standard was in the high 40% ratio for players, which is the single highest played league, so to do something that affects those players SIGNIFICANTLY in order to fix or lesson the effects for the rest isn't the right direction either. Don't begin to talk about the overall benefit to the health of the game, every single league would suffer from trusting the client to preform more actions, while the effects can only be permanent for those leagues that are well permanent doesn't mean it should be done. The disadvantages FAR outway the advantages to allowing the client to be trusted.

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I wonder how many people who left this game would come back if desync weren't an issue... Probably a lot.

Pure numbers don't matter, desync doesn't matter to a number of players already, especially ones like myself which don't want to see the game compromised in order to lesson the effect on those players that are having issues.

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The entire point of this thread is that the manifesto needs changing. Arguing about what it says is stupid.

Then convince me why it needs changing, because the arguments being presented now are terrible.

Things like well the economy is already trash, with no proof to back it up. Bots ruin the leagues, with 1 incident where bots actually don't play a factor at all in how someone acquires that wealth, rmt\cross league trading or strait cheating (or very rarely getting lucky\flipping) allows for such a single transaction to occur. You almost completely focused on one incident your missing out on trying to make the point you want to be made.


Furthermore I would like to re-stress that some players don't have an issue with desync, those are typically ones playing the game and not on the forums to present the arguments against changing one of the fundamental security features PoE has. I support this game for many reasons, one of which being is that GGG doesn't change its fundamental features that have existed since closed beta, things that may affect some of its playerbase negatively they are willing to risk in order to have a better overall game.

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that may affect some of its playerbase negatively

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may

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some

You crack me up.

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You may have explained it, but others are still arguing it can be done through legit means.

They probably have better experience in acquiring wealth fast in the leagues then I do. Whether or not it can be done legit or not is NOT the point, the whole reason that was presented was to be a point to argue that the economies in the leagues such, which they indeed do NOT.

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And telling me its my connection, again, the connection stats with trace ping and packet loss are already posted so you can stop with that.

Then explain to me this, its something specific to the people desync are happening to, like I mentioned its specific to your PC, connection, routing (something your ISP does), ect, because if it wasn't then wouldn't everyone be having desync issues as bad as you? I don't have desync issues as bad as you, its the same game code, I probably connect to a different gateway then you, but IDK. Either way unless you do troubleshooting to see what improves the problem then yes it is something to do with your "connection" which again can be anything from you > GGG's server. So what if other people are having issues too, maybe they TOO need to do something to see if they can improve the situation.

We all know the coding of PoE is subpar, it might not work like most games where isps\routing doesn't matter or have a huge impact, but it could very well be that these are the differences between your experience and mine legatus.

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Obliviongamer91 wrote:

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that may affect some of its playerbase negatively

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may

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some

You crack me up.

Instead of making an intelligent counter argument you quote a few words and one line of mine. Yeah completely a great way to make your point.

Wet all support the game, it's just that some of us prefer to do that by getting positive changes in the game and others do it by flooding the forums with garbage about "desync is fine, the economy is not affected by cheats and botting, the security is totally effective, you haven't done anything to mitigate desync, turn off your torrents, play a build or mode you don't want to play" etc. Meanwhile any five year old with Google can scroll up three lines and see that everything you're saying is rubbish. And I mean that in the most non offensive way possible, but that is the actual truth.

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Legatus1982 wrote:

Wet all support the game, it's just that some of us prefer to do that by getting positive changes in the game and others do it by flooding the forums with garbage about "desync is fine, the economy is not affected by cheats and botting, the security is totally effective, you haven't done anything to mitigate desync, turn off your torrents, play a build or mode you don't want to play" etc. Meanwhile any five year old with Google can scroll up three lines and see that everything you're saying is rubbish. And I mean that in the most non offensive way possible, but that is the actual truth.

Ok prove that your situation isn't the issue, send me your PC, i'll hook it up at my connection and test it for you.

Saying all of my points are incorrect because a few of them are incorrect is asinine.

Here is a fact for you, Desync is not an issue for me and other players in PoE.

Compromising the game for you isn't worth it, simply put its not GGG"s fault or mine that your having the issues to the extent you are and you haven't proven you've done anything to lesson the effects for yourself.

Your counter arguments to my points always deflect the main point I am trying to make, which honestly makes it seem like you dont have a leg(atus) to sit on.

The game shouldn't cater specifically to you, it shouldn't change its manifesto because certain situations have occurred, its similar to the broken window theory where if one window is broken you might as well break all the windows in the building. I'd rather a small draft come into PoE then the blizzard of cheating\exploiting\ect that would occur of the client was trusted further.

Some day when GGG decided to not support PoE further I hope they release a standalone version of the game, until then those having issues with desync to the TERRIBLE condition that you are having will either A play the game and try to mitigate, B simply complain or C don't play.

Goetzjam, your arguments all seem to boil down to "no u." This is due to your complete unwillingness to accept the truth: desync IS a problem. Every argument you have made is from the precarious position of, "No, it isn't." It's just like trying to have a reasonable, intelligent discussion with a theist. It just doesn't work. They all say, "Disprove my position" as if that is an argument unto itself. It isn't.

You have "NO RIGHT" to demand evidence/proof of others if you aren't willing to provide any yourself--and you have failed to do so thus far. Your McDonald's analogy fails because desync doesn't just "cool off" over time like coffee does. If it's so hot that you can't drink it, and it just stays that hot, people have EVERY right to complain about it. To take it a step further, it's like blaming someone's cup holder for how hot the coffee was. It isn't rational, and it doesn't hold up.

That said, some players have learned how to cope with it, but that doesn't change the fact that it ruins the experience for the other 99% (or however many it actually is). Many of that majority have long since left the game on that basis alone.

Also, I find your 40% figure highly suspect. Care to cite it? Not that it matters too much, because it would mean 60% (majority) do not play standard. Your opinions of how the currency exchange is somehow better is also completely subjective. Let's face it. You go around the forums like you're some kind of PoE authority just because you post a lot, but your posts lack substance and credibility. Your "experience" is also (apparently) vastly different from the majority of players, which means you can't relate to or understand where they are coming from. This is why people call you a troll. You don't understand, and you play your position off as if it's the only valid one.

~+~+~+~+~+~

Ten_of_Swords wrote:

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Actual truth comes from experience. You believe that looking for videos of desync deaths on youtube means anything other then there are lots of PoE videos? You are essentially cherry picking data by doing that. What you see is called confirmation bias, and plenty of very smart people fall for this logical fallacy, no need to be ashamed.

It isn't cherry-picking when there are voluminous walls of text dating back to the beta about desync and its effects. The evidence is all there. There are countless videos and streams that display it as well. What you are suggesting is akin to someone saying, "Oh, proving salt water exists by taking a cup from the ocean is just cherry-picking." Let's not be ridiculous, please. I agree with you that desync is not a black and white topic. I also agree that most of the threads go in circles.

What I don't agree with is that the supposed benefits of the system that forces desync on us is worth the drawbacks. Hackers, dupers, botters, RMTers, etc have basically still done what they want, and banning accounts doesn't really do anything about it since the game is f2p. I've played lots of games that have cheaters in them, and while I don't personally do it or condone it, most of those games have still been perfectly enjoyable despite them.

On the other hand, every time I die because of desync, I feel cheated. This is probably true for the majority of people as well, though I can't precisely speak for them. From everything I've read about it, that's the general feeling of it. So you have this catch-22 where you feel cheated by a faulty engine/netcode/whatever, or you allow the possibility that some people may try to cheat outright--which is still a bannable offense.

I can hear the counter-argument already, "But they can just create a new account, like you said." That's true, but the hardcore cheaters are doing it even now despite the supposed "protections" in place to prevent it. Duping can be a real problem, and as I stated earlier in the thread, I find map hacks to be pretty harmless in normal play (non-races, really). The difference is that your "part-time" cheater will probably feel the loss more than one of the hardcore cheaters that are currently doing it, so the penalty will be more meaningful to your average player.

What it comes down to is that this community and GGG both need to come to terms with the fact that no in-game economy is free of these issues, and damaging the player experience isn't the proper way to go about addressing them. Detecting/Deleting duplicate items should be the goal. I've seen games that delete the item that was copied (the original) in addition to the duped item when the player attempts to dupe it, destroying both items and leaving the player without the item they wanted to dupe. I think that is a much stronger approach, but other ways can work too. In the current state, you have no idea if any item you traded for is "legit" or not.