People do realise that Daggers do more damage than 2Handers because of crit right?

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kasub wrote:

Even if ignoring the existence of wrath/anger, doesn't flat physical gear scale better with high APS weapons?

Yup, it does. The nodes and base still make 2h damage more than double.

It's just napkin math - Soul Taker is around the 250 mark, 12k Cyclone average - double it - fuck it - quadruple it to 48k Cyclone, still less than half.

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Boem wrote:

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Disregarding crit, #yolo ->

The 2h weapon has a HUGE weapon range/hitbox - HUGE that when you get to those numbers scales clear speed far better. Attack speed hardly scales a faster weapon more - I would even argue attack speed makes more of an impact on slow weapons.

Then you have to factor in the nodes.

And.....you lost all credibility with me, have a good one sir.

Peace,

-Boem-

Yah hitbox difference across spectral throw doesn't really make much of a difference in terms of number of targets hit. It's a difference of +20% diameter on an already relatively small diameter.

The 2H would lsoe the DPS race to the NONDAGGER 1H simply because the 33% more AS on the 1H results in essentially equivalent DPS (the 2H gains ~400 DPS, the 1H gains ~600) and the speed of the 1H means additional scaling off other flat sources (requiring very little to break even), better positioning rates and target acquisition, and much much better defenses (or a free 15% more AS from dual wielding, single-handedly closing the gap right there).

It's definitely not the crit that's the problem (here).

Should have put "disregarding Spectral Throw" as well there, when I talk hit-box I mean Cyclone, Double Strike. I haven't seen anyone seriously use 2h spectral for a very long time.

You see how hard it is to juggle numbers when trying to balance Aura effectiveness, Spectral Throw effectiveness, Melee effectiveness when they use the same shit?

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Autocthon wrote:

The 2H would lsoe the DPS race to the NONDAGGER 1H simply because the 33% more AS on the 1H results in essentially equivalent DPS (the 2H gains ~400 DPS, the 1H gains ~600) and the speed of the 1H means additional scaling off other flat sources (requiring very little to break even), better positioning rates and target acquisition, and much much better defenses (or a free 15% more AS from dual wielding, single-handedly closing the gap right there).

Spectral Throw? Yes.

Melee? No.

"

Should have put "disregarding Spectral Throw" as well there, when I talk hit-box I mean Cyclone, Double Strike.

Yes you should have. If we like it or not, that gem alone makes your argument of hit-box benefits irrelevant.

Which is why it should have a weapon restriction on it, transforming the low life meta to lightning strike which has an inherent 40% less modifier on projectiles.

Peace,

-Boem-

Would have been so nice if ST was restricted to swords/axes/staves. It's far too flexible in its current state.

Changing ST weapon preference at this point would mess with too many builds so I can't see GGG ever changing it.

To the guy saying Multistrike will scale evenly a 1.46 base and a 2.16 base ROFL.

lvl 20 multistrike:
107% MORE attack speed

Lvl 20/20 faster attacks:
54% increased attack speed

Pain Sunder Vaal Axe:
1.46 base attack speed

(1.46 * 1.54) * 2.07 = 4.65 aps

Gale Bane Jewelled Foil:
2.16 base attack speed

(2.16 * 1.54) * 2.07 = 6.89 aps

Original aps difference: 2.16 - 1.46 = 0.7 aps
Aps difference with multistrike+faster attacks: 6.89 - 4.65 = 2.24 aps

Which will be even more obvious as you stack AS through gloves/rings and tree nodes / aura.
Cyclone will give another 38% increased attack speed at lvl 20 making the difference even greater.

And people saying daggers have low range, that argument is faulty also. Lightning Strike existed a long time ago, Reave already hits half the screen at 8 stacks.

"

Would have been so nice if ST was restricted to swords/axes/staves. It's far too flexible in its current state.

Changing ST weapon preference at this point would mess with too many builds so I can't see GGG ever changing it.

You mean like restricting CoC to ranged skills and melee skills only? (st wont be viable for it anymore)

And in such dramatically revamping the effectiveness of CoC in general just by this change?

(also known as balance :p?)

You make it sound like they have not butchered builds in the past and fear doing so in the future. :D

And if you are talking about the low life meta, then like i said previously, it would switch to lightning strike instead of ST, since it is only utilized to funnel melee damage into projectiles. Which LS also does but at a less effective rate.

I imagine the big boys will survive wielding there daggers with a poor 600k dps instead of 900k.

I just wonder why GGG should "FEAR" changing anything at all in there game when it balances the content and prolongs it's longevity by doing so?

It's there house, we just get to play in it for no fee.

Peace,

-Boem-

Edit :

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And people saying daggers have low range, that argument is faulty also. Lightning Strike existed a long time ago, Reave already hits half the screen at 8 stacks.

Reave requires you to start of in melee range, greatly reducing it's effective combat dps. Specially considering the duration stacks have and the hit's required to vamp it up. (not saying it cant be overcome when build for it, just saying it is not a free AOE and still requires a melee approach, justifying its AOE component)

lightning strike has a 40% less modifier on it's projectiles. Justifying it's projectile component on a melee attack.

Not sure what your point was with that sentence, but given all the factors i don't see how any of those come even close to ST's effectiveness and actual combat dps.

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You make it sound like they have not butchered builds in the past and fear doing so in the future. :D

Changing weapon preference is a step above that. It hurts a huge variety of players including many new players that simply used ST with a weapon they found. It has the ability to disregard all their supports and build they made around such a weapon. It would affect people in normal and in cruel.

Of course I support my own suggestion but just doubting that would happen.

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Boem wrote:

Edit :

"

And people saying daggers have low range, that argument is faulty also. Lightning Strike existed a long time ago, Reave already hits half the screen at 8 stacks.

Reave requires you to start of in melee range, greatly reducing it's effective combat dps. Specially considering the duration stacks have and the hit's required to vamp it up. (not saying it cant be overcome when build for it, just saying it is not a free AOE and still requires a melee approach, justifying its AOE component)

lightning strike has a 40% less modifier on it's projectiles. Justifying it's projectile component on a melee attack.

Not sure what your point was with that sentence, but given all the factors i don't see how any of those come even close to ST's effectiveness and actual combat dps.

Point was, if ST gets nerfed for daggers people will just migrate to Lightning Strike dagger builds.

You can still scale LS to some crazy numbers even with the penalty to projectiles, and ofc you have to factor in that most monsters will be permashocked with a crit LS build.

Also there is a Knockback Reave build that makes reave a truly range skill.

@kasub, since that time that you speak of (finding wrong weapons for the skills being utilized)
some things have changed allowing this change to ST.

1) weapon % based recipes

2) new skills have entered the game to benefit early game progression (molten comes to mind, but i honestly can't recall if it has a weapon restriction?)

(3) the master benches will also facilitate smoother progression then previously possible i imagine? but this one i am pulling out of my a$$ since we have no factual data on that)

It is time for this change, like i mentioned earlier, ST was released to close the gab between melee and ranged on the mid level progression (lvl 40 -> first maps) when melee suffered greatly from like you say shit drops and the forced requirement to get in close combat, but the game has shifted since then.

Peace,

-boem-

edit :

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Point was, if ST gets nerfed for daggers people will just migrate to Lightning Strike dagger builds.

You can still scale LS to some crazy numbers even with the penalty to projectiles, and ofc you have to factor in that most monsters will be permashocked with a crit LS build.

Also there is a Knockback Reave build that makes reave a truly range skill.

Like i mentioned 3 pages ago i think, of course this will happen LS will be the new
melee --> projectile converter, but at least it will have a 40% less modifier on it and no inherent "pierce chance" + "multihit".

Also your "enemy's will be shock-stacked" argument is flawed, this is already the case, LS or ST it holds to relevance to that argument, both will shock-stack given then raw numbers top-tier players push out.

I see no issue in cutting there paper dps by 40% and there effective combat dps (because of no pierce unless quality 70% i believe, still no 100% and no inherent multihit in LS) by another X factor. they will still rape content, but less so compared to other valid options opening up build diversity. (at least the choice instead of "dagger up or GTFO" situation we have now for dps)