People do realise that Daggers do more damage than 2Handers because of crit right?

"

so I repeat: buff the hell out of 2-hander base damage.

Worst idea ever in the current game state.

Let's buff the damage of the play-style that can utilize the least defenses in the game.

"okay sir, right on it"

Peace,

-Boem-

"

johnKeys wrote:

"

Chundadragon wrote:

Don't think you guys understand what you're talking about when you say "buff 2h weapons"

http://www.pathofexile.com/forum/view-thread/943681

http://www.pathofexile.com/forum/view-thread/851184

Notice DPS difference. Never been 2h's base damage that's been the problem.

Differences have always been crit/non-crit.

wait, did you just seriously compare the godly, mirrored, possibly-best-in-game 2-handed axe to a Soul Taker? a weapon which key property is the "no mana cost" rather than DPS or APS?

compare the godly #1 2-hander to a #1 dagger or a #1 sword/axe - and you'll see the base (non-crit) damage difference isn't that great.
or better yet, compare an average 2-hander and an average 1-hander with roughly the same phys and attack speed rolls.

and considering the #1 dagger may possibly outclass the #1 2-hander due to sheer APS - without even mentioning the crit - that's plain ridiculous.
more damage AND a shield, or Dual-Wield for even more damage AND block...

so I repeat: buff the hell out of 2-hander base damage.

Let's compare the godly #1 2hander to the godly #1 1hander, 2H will still outclass the DPS by more than double.

"

Chundadragon wrote:

"

Autocthon wrote:

Of course the core question is...

"Are daggers doing too much damage or is everything else doing too little?"

and secondary to that is

"Are auras providing too much of player DPS, or are they providing the correct amount?"

Not going to say "my solution is the bets solution" or demand you agree. Just saying that you can;t assume that my solution reasoning is going to be a direct buff to 2H and aura use (when it was meant as a net neutral and nerf respectively).

I'd say everything else too little and aura too much.

Tbh, I'm getting bored of aura stacking - hopefully the patch brings out something new and changes the game significantly.

The real answer to your question is holy shit, how the fuck do I get so much DPS out of my weapon when all I have on my buzzsaw foil is Attack Speed and all I have on my dagger is Attack Speed and Crit with no phys/no investment that's punishing?

It is my opinion that a minor nerf to available damage on daggers (and other high crit fast weapons) and normalization of auras would fix the primary source of that holy-shit moment.

Which is of course the fact that Anger and Wrath are each worth a whopping 300 DPS on a 2APS weapon with literally 0 investment. So taking a "mediocre" 200 DPS dagger and rocketing it to 600-800 DPS (900ish with Hatred I guess) before crit multiplier. Getting 2/3 or more of your DPS off auras is an issue.

Normalize aura gain down based on base AS and you'll fix that issue (reducing them to roughly 120-150 DPS off the top of my head). Still over half your DPS, but also a much more reasonable 400-500 DPS, with a 2H weapon balancing out a bit higher.

Of course that's (IMO) still way too much damage from auras, but at least that damage is subject to resistance (while phys has no appreciable resistance to worry about).

Edit: Afterward all that's left is factoring crit (probably by increasing base crit on weapons overall, or increasing crit damage on 2H weapons overall).

Top 1h sword: 565 dps, 2.16 aps
Top 2h axe: 882 dps, 1.46 aps

A lot less than double, also 2.16 base aps is crazy compared to 1.46.
True the flat damage is about the double but attack speed will scale the 1h one so hard due to support gems like Multistrike or skills like Cyclone.

And then we have the #1 dagger:
555 dps, 2.03 aps, 9.21 crit and 37% crit multi.

Balanced xD.

Just make ST weapon restricted lol.

It was implemented in the game to overcome the melee vs ranged debacle we had then, more so in the mid progression/early maps.

It didn't even solve that debacle, people just started using melee weapons to do ranged attacks until end-game instead of swapping back to there melee skills, that in itself demonstrates how broken a skill like that is.

Make it axes/swords/staffs only.

Staffs could still potentially scale of there base crit chance, but they are unable to wield shields, so this in itself will balance them out.

Low cost ele buzzsaw remains unnafected as a low budget play-style at early league's and for whoever like's the play-style.

And high tier low-life build meta will shift to "lightning strike" which has an inherent 40% less multiplier on it's projectiles balancing out there damage.

Peace,

-Boem-

Edit :

"

Top 1h sword: 565 dps, 2.16 aps
Top 2h axe: 882 dps, 1.46 aps

A lot less than double, also 2.16 base aps is crazy compared to 1.46.
True the flat damage is about the double but attack speed will scale the 1h one so hard due to support gems like Multistrike or skills like Cyclone.

And then we have the #1 dagger:
555 dps, 2.03 aps, 9.21 crit and 37% crit multi.

Balanced xD.

You are forgetting to compare EHP potential of both. And with reflect in the game, higher but slower top-end damage is actually a downside to a build.

But you are correct i don't think chunda thought this true or is being objective on this mater.

"

Mannoth wrote:

Top 1h sword: 565 dps, 2.16 aps
Top 2h axe: 882 dps, 1.46 aps

A lot less than double, also 2.16 base aps is crazy compared to 1.46.
True the flat damage is about the double but attack speed will scale the 1h one so hard due to support gems like Multistrike or skills like Cyclone.

Multistrike will scale the attacks proportionately on both, so it's really not a difference between the two. Cyclone's mechanics are... weird. Weird enough for me to not immediately guess at how it scales comparative across AS. Generally speaking As on supports doesn't care what your base APS is, it's all proportional.

I love Spectral Throw, so I hate to say it but it is the issue here. You can't say 2Hs are on par with daggers by comparing 2H+Cyclone with dagger+ST. Even ignoring Cyclone's desync problems, tooltip DPS isn't telling the whole story since in the end what we really care about is clear speed, and ST has far superior coverage (and thus clear speed) to any melee skill (except maybe Reave, but, oh yeah, can't use 2H). Apples to apples, 2H ST is a joke compared to daggers. I made a variant of Goratha's Bino's ST build and it clears substantially faster than my 2H ST build using a 780 DPS/1.72 AS Reaver Sword. The simplest (I'm not saying the best, just the simplest) way to rebalance would be either to disable ST for daggers or enable Reave for 2Hs.

"

Mannoth wrote:

Top 1h sword: 565 dps, 2.16 aps
Top 2h axe: 882 dps, 1.46 aps

A lot less than double, also 2.16 base aps is crazy compared to 1.46.
True the flat damage is about the double but attack speed will scale the 1h one so hard due to support gems like Multistrike or skills like Cyclone.

And then we have the #1 dagger:
555 dps, 2.03 aps, 9.21 crit and 37% crit multi.

Balanced xD.

Disregarding crit/spectral, #yolo ->

The 2h weapon has a HUGE weapon range/hitbox - HUGE that when you get to those numbers scales clear speed far better. Attack speed hardly scales a faster weapon more - I would even argue attack speed makes more of an impact on slow weapons.

Then you have to factor in the nodes.

"

Disregarding crit, #yolo ->

The 2h weapon has a HUGE weapon range/hitbox - HUGE that when you get to those numbers scales clear speed far better. Attack speed hardly scales a faster weapon more - I would even argue attack speed makes more of an impact on slow weapons.

Then you have to factor in the nodes.

And.....you lost all credibility with me, have a good one sir.

Peace,

-Boem-

"

Chundadragon wrote:

"

Mannoth wrote:

Top 1h sword: 565 dps, 2.16 aps
Top 2h axe: 882 dps, 1.46 aps

A lot less than double, also 2.16 base aps is crazy compared to 1.46.
True the flat damage is about the double but attack speed will scale the 1h one so hard due to support gems like Multistrike or skills like Cyclone.

And then we have the #1 dagger:
555 dps, 2.03 aps, 9.21 crit and 37% crit multi.

Balanced xD.

Disregarding crit, #yolo ->

The 2h weapon has a HUGE weapon range/hitbox - HUGE that when you get to those numbers scales clear speed far better. Attack speed hardly scales a faster weapon more - I would even argue attack speed makes more of an impact on slow weapons.

Then you have to factor in the nodes.

Even if ignoring the existence of wrath/anger, doesn't flat physical gear scale better with high APS weapons?