People do realise that Daggers do more damage than 2Handers because of crit right?

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Snorkle_uk wrote:

*snip*

Precisely this. There are a lot of factors, but daggers are not the primary culprit. Elemental auras are a major factor and stacking damage multipliers is the other major factor (although they come from different sources).

I don't want to see low-life builds get nerfed into the ground though. Crown of Eyes is really what makes this scaling possible because without it, most of the low-life bonuses wouldn't even apply to attacks. Blood Rage is the only thing that would help low-life attackers without CoE.

I am happy that some people finally agree with me. And you know what, if you take the auras and spectral throw out of the eqaution, low life does not feel broken either. Example:

https://www.pathofexile.com/forum/view-thread/832799 : LoPan's low life flicker build.

https://www.pathofexile.com/forum/view-thread/417287 : My CI flicker build.

LoPan has 340K DPS and 5.6K ES, i have 225K DPS, and 12K ES. Does not feel unbalanced at all, mainly because LoPan builds around daggers. Even though he uses alot of auras, he has not taken the aura path. On the other hand, Low Life users that take all aura passives, can scale flicker anywhere from 500K to 1.5million DPS(i have seen it). So yeah, there are many contributing factors, but i instist that the core issue are auras, that already very strong if you take all the passives, and can scale rediculously when you are low life.

Ehmm, before somebody here screams OP at 225K DPS with 12K ES, mind 1) that the gear costs 500ex, 2) my aegis aurora character with 6.2K ES, and 36K DPS, even though weaker on bosses, when i play him i never have to alt f4, like i do on flicker sometimes.

And BTW i am OK with a nerf on how multiplier scales. However i much prefer if it worked like that. The more multiplier you have, after some point, the more diminishing returns it would give. This way it will nerf directly richer and more high level player, while leaving under geared/leveled people untouched, and having some control over the situation.

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candoerfer wrote:

The reason daggers scale better than 2 hand weapons is because they use the mods of your rings and amulets better.

Hells yeah seaking.

It' actually not too crazy with rares; the multiplier affix only spawns on amulets and quivers. Things can begin to get really stupid if you put an Abyssus on your head. But Adder's Touch adds multiplier no other weapon can touch.

Sheet even without Touch and just an Increased Crit Damage support you can get a 672.5% multiplier. Effective end damage crit multiplier per chance to crit for that small amount:

5%: 1.28
20%: 2.14
50%: 3.86
75%: 5.29
100%: 6.72

These would be lowered by the Accuracy multiplier if you're not casting spells (0.95 or gasp, possibly less if you willfully didn't accuracy) but naturally diminishing returns on your Increased% multipler.. There's no way to pull three times the damage out of your butt with a Mace after your increased% is at 400. You don't have the precious +Power Charges or base crit, you're not getting 300% increased attack speed even if you started as a Scion (god bless her zoomy ass, you can get halfway there with dual swords), you just plateau and take Life% or regen. Maybe some Radius% for your groundslam range.

Multiplier and uneven return on +critical chance% are underlying causes to their dominance. For all the bother to gather all the affixes and spend the skill points, all-in crit should be the best. But by an entire order of magnitude?

At least they say they're adding more weapon-specific crit chance like Lethality I hear. That's a really nice area, bow physical damage. You can take the critical stuff because it's there, it'll increase your endgame damage by 40 to 60% even with a crappy 5% crit chance bow, you get something back for not using Resolute Technique and being awash in smelly smelly Dex.

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The problem is spectral throw

Spectral Throw has 120 to 180% damage effectiveness and 100% pierce. Lightning Strike has 84% effectiveness (63% effectiveness if you care about your physical damage - half of it is converted to lightning and then immediately cut in half by monster resist) and 60% pierce AFTER remorting it with a Gemcutter's Prism.

A skill that's objectively about 2.5 times as powerful as what came before it being a problem? I'd say that's a possibility.

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screams OP at 225K DPS

OP! 50k of ram should be enough for anybody.

But yes Wrath and Anger adding 700 (350 after resist) damage a second is pretty damn crazy when the best non-crit rare weapons have ~800 dps.

It's unfortunately one of those "broken and fine" sort of situations. If you have a conversion attack like Infernal Blow, the elemental portion of that attack is gimping you. Lowers your damage by 25%. Cuts your leech in half. In addition to the weak 1.25 base multiplier. (66% total damage, 50% leech. No wonder many people used to think physical attacks were terrible.) You need something with a stupidly high multiplier, like Molten Strike. And Penetration. But Penetration when only half of your damage is elemental is a complete waste. But if you have ANGARRRRRR, that penetration becomes a reasonable deal. In the case of something like Ice Shot and Hatred, it's 28% more damage.

Basically yeah I'm bitching about the disco light effect. Everyone being able to use more than a single aura. Man this would not fly on the old Diablo 2 skill trees. Even Paladins never got an Aura Master passive that let you dual or quadruple wield auras.

(Though he should've.)

Just look at how much crit you can get with only taking dagger nodes compared to say axe / sword nodes.

Daggers are obviously meant to be the crit weapons in this game and if crit is really strong that means daggers are going to be really strong.

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Poutsos wrote:

Too tired of this, i 've tried to make my case but people who have not played daggers just do not understand. The problem is spectral throw and the scaling of elemental auras. That's why these guys have 90% elemental damage, the dagger is just the vessel, providing high crit(as it should, considering it is the crit dedicated weapon), and high speed(which could be reduced, but that's it). Before the spectral throw, aura abusing fiasko NOBODY complained about daggers being over powered. Also, THERE WASN'T ANY CRIT DAGGER MELEE CHARACTER LEVEL 100 ON ALL LEAGUES FOR 1.5 YEAR. And yeah, 2 handed weapons need a buff. Propably having a built in lv 20 melee splash or something.

Also to the guy made the comment about who is more scary, a guy with a giant axe or with a tiny dagger. Well, if we play that game, then sure, the big dude will be scarier. However, let's say i am wearing a huge full plate armour, with a tiny opening in the neck. Then the fast, agile, precise assasin, could slash my throat and insta kill me, while the giant axe could leave me with several broken bones, but i might surive. The assasin could be much deadlier. And that has been the case in most RPGs historically. Plus who would scare you more, Bruce Lee or arnold schwarzenegger? Propably Schwarzenegger, but who would be able to do more damage to you, and faster? :)

this pretty much sums the issue up. daggers are the vessels for carnage that comes from auras/critmulti etc. because of their high crit/critdmg.

spectral throw is a much bigger issue. it should only hit 1 time per throw period.

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candoerfer wrote:

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sodium777 wrote:

Daggers scale past... and way past 2handers when you have crit and crit multiplier...

The reason daggers scale better than 2 hand weapons is because they use the mods of your rings and amulets better. Unequip your accessory and compare the dps aain, you will see a difference then. Crit builds also often focus more on dps in their skilltree compared to other weapons, so comparing the dps of those two is like comparing apples to bananas.

the reason why daggers scale better is because they were meant to scale better. they were deigned before things like reve and spectral throw were put in.

the lack of aoe abilities was the only balancer knives had. its not just rings , they scale off of everything because the best stats in the game for scaling are base crit and base speed.


and bam the two weapons with both are the known dps builds ( wander and dagger)

how to fix Daggers and spectral throw = Spectral throw can not crit, wouldnt hurt dagger builds, wouldnt hurt Ele-throw and 2 hand throw,

best one hand 550 dps , best 2 hand 880 dps, 2 hands must have 1100 dps logic wise and even then one handed would be better because all min-max damage scales better of attackspeed, and you dont sacrifice a shield

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StormHunter wrote:

how to fix Daggers and spectral throw = Spectral throw can not crit, wouldnt hurt dagger builds, wouldnt hurt Ele-throw and 2 hand throw,

Sorry what did I just read?

I had a pure phys crit spectral throw character once, not overpowered, same DPS as buzzsaw but pure phys - that doesn't fix it in anyway.

I think 2-handed weapons should do a lot more consistent damage on average, while small fast crit weapons may still do more, on crit.

2-handers are typically a lot slower, often used with the Resolute Technique keystone, and provide absolutely no defensive side whatsoever.

so to put this simply: buff the hell out of the base damage of 2-handed weapons, while at the same time adding a penalty stipulation to Spectral Throw, when using a 2-hander.
either in damage, speed, or crit chance.

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johnKeys wrote:

I think 2-handed weapons should do a lot more consistent damage on average, while small fast crit weapons may still do more, on crit.

2-handers are typically a lot slower, often used with the Resolute Technique keystone, and provide absolutely no defensive side whatsoever.

so to put this simply: buff the hell out of the base damage of 2-handed weapons, while at the same time adding a penalty stipulation to Spectral Throw, when using a 2-hander.

Screw the penalty stipulation unless you also happen to buff auras for 2H weapons.