People do realise that Daggers do more damage than 2Handers because of crit right?

Crits just broken. Scales off damn near everything, so any buff is a crit buff. Needs a rework.

why block does not apply to all 2h ?

Too tired of this, i 've tried to make my case but people who have not played daggers just do not understand. The problem is spectral throw and the scaling of elemental auras. That's why these guys have 90% elemental damage, the dagger is just the vessel, providing high crit(as it should, considering it is the crit dedicated weapon), and high speed(which could be reduced, but that's it). Before the spectral throw, aura abusing fiasko NOBODY complained about daggers being over powered. Also, THERE WASN'T ANY CRIT DAGGER MELEE CHARACTER LEVEL 100 ON ALL LEAGUES FOR 1.5 YEAR. And yeah, 2 handed weapons need a buff. Propably having a built in lv 20 melee splash or something.

Also to the guy made the comment about who is more scary, a guy with a giant axe or with a tiny dagger. Well, if we play that game, then sure, the big dude will be scarier. However, let's say i am wearing a huge full plate armour, with a tiny opening in the neck. Then the fast, agile, precise assasin, could slash my throat and insta kill me, while the giant axe could leave me with several broken bones, but i might surive. The assasin could be much deadlier. And that has been the case in most RPGs historically. Plus who would scare you more, Bruce Lee or arnold schwarzenegger? Propably Schwarzenegger, but who would be able to do more damage to you, and faster? :)

"

What about doubling the 2h passive nodes damage?

Reflect says hiy.

=)

This is one of the reasons why daggers are also more favorable, they come with additional layers of defense to block the exceeding damage you are doing.

While also scaling of attack speed to have low-end rapid successions of crit.

If a 2-hander would have the same crit rate but with a lower attack speed and more top-end damage, reflect will rape your ass with "auto-attack" let alone an augmented skill.

Combined with the lowered defensive capability's....Bummer out of luck.

Peace,

-Boem-

edit :

"

Too tired of this, i 've tried to make my case but people who have not played daggers just do not understand. The problem is spectral throw and the scaling of elemental auras. That's why these guys have 90% elemental damage, the dagger is just the vessel, providing high crit(as it should, considering it is the crit dedicated weapon), and high speed(which could be reduced, but that's it). Before the spectral throw, aura abusing fiasko NOBODY complained about daggers being over powered. Also, THERE WASN'T ANY CRIT DAGGER MELEE CHARACTER LEVEL 100 ON ALL LEAGUES FOR 1.5 YEAR. And yeah, 2 handed weapons need a buff. Propably having a built in lv 20 melee splash or something.

I agree mostly with this sentiment, daggers are being put to blame when they are not the source.

Crit multiplier is the source and spectral throw is the source of this issue.

Crit multiplier because it scales of literally everything and spectral throw because it disables a fundamental basic of the game. Using non-ranged-designed weapons as ranged. This was begging for issue's right of the bat.

Make spectral throw "swords and axes only" would solve this problem. Maybe even make it
"2-hand restricted" could be an option. Offering some safety to 2-hand builds.

Generally speaking it's the combination of high AS and Crit with a lot of available Crit Multiplier being compounded by Auras + ST more tahn anything else.

If auras didn't exist (or were % damage) daggers and 2H wouldn't be nearly as different in total DPS, and I'd expect 2H to come out ahead in plenty of circumstances.

Change auras to scale based on weapon AS, change affixes to be a bit better on 2H than they currently are. And make crit multiplier less contribution to total DPS (or at leats give a way for 2H to match it).

pure crit dagger builds... and reflect?

"

sodium777 wrote:

Daggers scale past... and way past 2handers when you have crit and crit multiplier...

The reason daggers scale better than 2 hand weapons is because they use the mods of your rings and amulets better. Unequip your accessory and compare the dps aain, you will see a difference then. Crit builds also often focus more on dps in their skilltree compared to other weapons, so comparing the dps of those two is like comparing apples to bananas.

"

b15h09 wrote:

Crits just broken. Scales off damn near everything, so any buff is a crit buff. Needs a rework.

Pains me to say this but sooo true. Love my CoC chars but...

+chance to proc status
+added damage
+chance to proc spells

That's alot of bang for the buck. At least GGG should consider decoupling crit from status ailments. Create a new value like %to proc and have it based off that. Same thing for CoC. Have crit solely used for enhancing damage.

"

Poutsos wrote:

Too tired of this, i 've tried to make my case but people who have not played daggers just do not understand. The problem is spectral throw and the scaling of elemental auras. That's why these guys have 90% elemental damage, the dagger is just the vessel, providing high crit(as it should, considering it is the crit dedicated weapon), and high speed(which could be reduced, but that's it). Before the spectral throw, aura abusing fiasko NOBODY complained about daggers being over powered. Also, THERE WASN'T ANY CRIT DAGGER MELEE CHARACTER LEVEL 100 ON ALL LEAGUES FOR 1.5 YEAR. And yeah, 2 handed weapons need a buff. Propably having a built in lv 20 melee splash or something.

Also to the guy made the comment about who is more scary, a guy with a giant axe or with a tiny dagger. Well, if we play that game, then sure, the big dude will be scarier. However, let's say i am wearing a huge full plate armour, with a tiny opening in the neck. Then the fast, agile, precise assasin, could slash my throat and insta kill me, while the giant axe could leave me with several broken bones, but i might surive. The assasin could be much deadlier. And that has been the case in most RPGs historically. Plus who would scare you more, Bruce Lee or arnold schwarzenegger? Propably Schwarzenegger, but who would be able to do more damage to you, and faster? :)

exactly, dagger nodes havent changed since forever.

They nerfed crit multi already, and its still really strong, its always going to be strong. These shavs low life crown of eyes type builds arnt even really speccing multi on the tree are they? From what Ive seen a lot of them dont even get adders touch etc.


That said, I agree with a lot of what Boem is saying too. I made a post in suggestions about ways to 'fix' the dagger issue. Stop spec throw working with daggers, thats an option. Another is to make all the dagger specific phys damage and crit multi "melee" tagged, that way it doesnt benefit spec throw.

Thing is, as has been said, part of this is just an ele aura problem. As I said before, ele buzzsaw has more damage with 1 handed swords than a 2 handed sword build, anywhere you see elemental auras the faster weapons are doing so much more than the 2 handers. So its partly an ele aura problem thats not exclusive to daggers.

Another aspect is just shavs, low life with blood rage, pain attunement, crown of eyes, all these things are op and the combination of them is ridiculous. Try your dagger spec throw build without any of those things and suddenly you are not talking 200k dps, you are talking about 10-16k. I borrowed my friends Honor Etcher (same as loath bane) the other night, did a spec throw 6 link with a tabula on my life based dagger melee ranger to see what the deal was, I had 16k dps with a perfect mirrored ambusher. My other friend doing ele buzzsaw with a really good jewelled foil was getting... 16k dps, and thats a resolute technique build, no crit. So whats really op here? Is it the dagger? I dont think so man, with a binos which is a seriously powerful dagger in the same setup I dont think Id even get 9k spec throw dps, and thats with ALL the op dagger nodes including adders touch.

Ele auras + coe + shavs + pain att + low life blood rage buff are what is sending this into outer space. Anyone here who has tried a lot of dagger builds with lower level daggers, binos, mirrored ambushers etc will know this to be true. A Binos level rare dagger is virtually impossible to find, and it doesnt even match an ele foil buzzsaw builds dps, takes a dagger that costs 200 exalts just to mirror to match that dps on a life build without all these crazy low life mechanics and uniques.

I feel like people who think this is just about daggers and dagger nodes have not actually tried different levels of daggers to know what theyre talking about. Without the 170 exalt 6 link shavs + 50 exalt crown of eyes + mirrored rings, amulet and spirit shield + pain att + blood rage LL the damage is less than 1/10 of what youre seeing in these tooltip screenshots, even with a 200 exalt mirrored ambusher.

Take away all those things and then compare a 15ex dagger (binos) with a 15ex jewelled foil doing ele buzzsaw and the jewelled foil is doing more damage. Thats because this has very little to do with how op daggers are and a lot to do with all this other shit in the equation.