People do realise that Daggers do more damage than 2Handers because of crit right?

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Top 1h sword: 565 dps, 2.16 aps
Top 2h axe: 882 dps, 1.46 aps

Wait for reals? Let me check this, perfect rolls you can't have no matter the number of divines used-

2H Axe: 910 dps. Heavy Strike into a wall: 1365 dps
1H Sword: 573 dps. Dual Strike all day long: 1512. What it used to be without 20% more physical damage: 1260 dps.

Can someone remind me why exactly in the seven hells dual wielding got a built-in physical boof when it was doing barely any less damage than a two handed freaking axe? And got double the benefit from off-weapon sources, therefore having higher single target damage thanks to that stuff not being normalized from the start?

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Autocthon wrote:

In CB doing a million DPS wit ha dagger wasn't broken because you were stuck dealing with enemies one by one considerably slowing your items/second compared to doing a million DPS with ST.

And being able to drop a boss in two seconds wasn't as big a deal since their drops were poop. But still, multiplier and daggers with nodes to actually use it, has always been a bit out of control. I always thought it was just their intention for it to be so.

(OT, We need more beefy monsters with decent drops, Diablo 2 style pacing where you have one per act doesn't cut it. That Vaal tunnel in Act 2 is an especially slow paced area. Push single target a little more.)

^dont forget double implicit rolls on dual wielding :), now with vaals it's even better.

But prior to that i never understood why a 2h sword had the same ACC buff as a dual wielder for example.

Should be at least 36% on 2hand swords imo.

And yes, the implementation of more single target oriented fights would also help to balance some stuff around, they had the perfect chance with atziri btw.

Until they decided it was an AOE dps check fest.

Peace,

-Boem-

(i honestly thought atziri was going to be the bees neez for single target oriented characters, giving them something to do other then slacking behind AOE oriented chars in loot/xp/progression)

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Boem wrote:

Should be at least 36% on 2hand swords imo.

Hey now mister, don't try to go too crazy there. >30% Accuracy? Are you out of your mind?

+80 to +160% global crit is totally bueno though.


(Seriously, +20% accuracy versus +40% (times 1.5) crit multiplier? Sometimes I have to just shake my head. It's like implicits were set in stone long before the stat tree was close to finished. 20% accuracy = 1 to 2 stat points. 20% multiplier = 6 to 8 stat points. Remember those legacy shields that had about three affixes worth of power bolted on to them?



I don't mind Astral Plates or whatnot getting differentiated, it just feels like crap to have everything else be lowly poop-covered peasants. For example,



can only ever have 6 affixes. Astral Plates are 7. Glorious Plates are about 7: 10% more armor and +5% movespeed if you don't have Leather and Steel.)

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Mannoth wrote:

To the guy saying Multistrike will scale evenly a 1.46 base and a 2.16 base ROFL.

lvl 20 multistrike:
107% MORE attack speed

Lvl 20/20 faster attacks:
54% increased attack speed

Pain Sunder Vaal Axe:
1.46 base attack speed

(1.46 * 1.54) * 2.07 = 4.65 aps

Gale Bane Jewelled Foil:
2.16 base attack speed

(2.16 * 1.54) * 2.07 = 6.89 aps

Original aps difference: 2.16 - 1.46 = 0.7 aps
Aps difference with multistrike+faster attacks: 6.89 - 4.65 = 2.24 aps

Which will be even more obvious as you stack AS through gloves/rings and tree nodes / aura.
Cyclone will give another 38% increased attack speed at lvl 20 making the difference even greater.

And people saying daggers have low range, that argument is faulty also. Lightning Strike existed a long time ago, Reave already hits half the screen at 8 stacks.

Fun fact: Those two values are the exact same DPS increase relative to the original DPS. The only "obvious" difference will be APS, the actual DPS scaling is 1:1 equivalent.

Multistrike is no more effective at increasing damage on a weapon with 10000000 APS as it is for increasing the DPS of a weapon with 1 APS. That's how proportionality works.

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LimitedRooster wrote:

And being able to drop a boss in two seconds wasn't as big a deal since their drops were poop. But still, multiplier and daggers with nodes to actually use it, has always been a bit out of control. I always thought it was just their intention for it to be so.

(OT, We need more beefy monsters with decent drops, Diablo 2 style pacing where you have one per act doesn't cut it. That Vaal tunnel in Act 2 is an especially slow paced area. Push single target a little more.)

That's why I wasn;t arguing that crit is really all tha tout of control. There are a lot of factors and there's no reason to gut daggers because a designer made the biggest oopsie ever by letting a ranged multistriking AoE work with weapons intended exclusively for single target damage.

Maybe in fairy land those will yield the same dps.

However in PoE higher attack speed means:
* more crits / second = more freeze/shock/stun/power charges/casts on crit/etc
* scale every single flat damage boost better, including physical from jewelry/belt/helm
* easier dealing with reflect due to smaller hits
* LGOH

And the only actual con:
* Mana cost

If you had a choice between a 500 dps 1.0 aps weapon and a 400 dps 1.5 aps weapon which one would you choose?

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Mannoth wrote:

Maybe in fairy land those will yield the same dps.

However in PoE higher attack speed means:
* more crits / second = more freeze/shock/stun/power charges/casts on crit/etc
* scale every single flat damage boost better, including physical from jewelry/belt/helm
* easier dealing with reflect due to smaller hits
* LGOH

And the only actual con:
* Mana cost

If you had a choice between a 500 dps 1.0 aps weapon and a 400 dps 1.5 aps weapon which one would you choose?

In a vaccum? The first one. In PoE? The first one unless I was trying to crit proc, and even then the actual total RAW DPS difference isn't going to be huge outside of gear specifically designed to take advantage of the APS, and the secondary benefits aren't going to sway me one way or the other (more damage means LONGER freezes/shock/stun and assuming similar crit chance the APS makes almost 0 difference in freeze/shock/stun uptime)

Realistically speaking unless the base APS difference is exceptional whichever one with better actual DPS wins regardless of APS (and exceptional means a large difference).

As it stands faster base APS scales better almost entirely by virtue of auras. The flat damage contribution from all other gear is ridiculously small compared to the damageof the auras.

In my opinion it's more a combination of aura's and %increased WED on gear that is out of control. Getting 120-150% WED just from gear is nuts. As far as crit goes, it's exponential power growth as you approach the crit cap. It's the trade off between decent mid-game damage or insane end-game damage (High base vs. high crit I mean).

Like someone said before, all you need is to rock a weapon with +aspd and +crit, grab the aura nodes and you are good to go for endgame dps.

If there was an aura that added 100-120 physical damage and you could get +30% phys damage on gear, it would be just as, if not more broken.

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lukeiy wrote:

In my opinion it's more a combination of aura's and %increased WED on gear that is out of control. Getting 120-150% WED just from gear is nuts. As far as crit goes, it's exponential power growth as you approach the crit cap.

Skill gems have 60 to 100% increased physical damage. Melee Splash and Multistrike add 57% increased. Increased spell damage should be in the neighborhood of 100 to 200% from gear.

Critical chance doesn't exponentially increase damage. CritChance * CritMultiplier + 1 - CritChance for the end damage multiplier. At any point an added 5% chance is going to add the same amount of damage given a certain crit damage multiplier.

That you can get near 10x the damage is the underlying issue. Huge flat damage auras are tertiary. Spectral Throw is a totally different issue; Spectral Throw is out of whack with the power level of many other ranged attacks but it isn't 10x as strong as they are.

To be blunt I personally kind of miss Diablo 2's crit system: a nice clean 2x damage. A source of increased multiplier should have been a much rarer thing; the support gem, a few nodes on the tree that are worth it if they're next to your damage source but not worth it if they're not, some very moderate amount on unique items and that's it.

i like how it's been like this since the game started and now they realized it, what the fuck? in 5 years they will realize town portals are too strong maybe

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CalamityAOE wrote:

There also aren't that many skills that benefit from having a slow heavy hitting attack.

Flicker strike is about the only attack I can think of that really benefits from doing more damage in a single hit rather then more damage over a bunch of hits.

Possibly adding skills for 2 handed weapons only would help I mean ground slam is pretty close but even that benefits greatly from a faster weapon.

Groundslam looks silly when attacking a zillion times a second.