People do realise that Daggers do more damage than 2Handers because of crit right?

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Autocthon wrote:

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Mannoth wrote:

Maybe in fairy land those will yield the same dps.

However in PoE higher attack speed means:
* more crits / second = more freeze/shock/stun/power charges/casts on crit/etc
* scale every single flat damage boost better, including physical from jewelry/belt/helm
* easier dealing with reflect due to smaller hits
* LGOH

And the only actual con:
* Mana cost

If you had a choice between a 500 dps 1.0 aps weapon and a 400 dps 1.5 aps weapon which one would you choose?

In a vaccum? The first one. In PoE? The first one unless I was trying to crit proc, and even then the actual total RAW DPS difference isn't going to be huge outside of gear specifically designed to take advantage of the APS, and the secondary benefits aren't going to sway me one way or the other (more damage means LONGER freezes/shock/stun and assuming similar crit chance the APS makes almost 0 difference in freeze/shock/stun uptime)

Realistically speaking unless the base APS difference is exceptional whichever one with better actual DPS wins regardless of APS (and exceptional means a large difference).

As it stands faster base APS scales better almost entirely by virtue of auras. The flat damage contribution from all other gear is ridiculously small compared to the damageof the auras.

You know that in 3 seconds the 500 dps weapon would do 1500 and the 400 dps would had done 1800 right?

~.~

The benefits of 2h weapon is the massive base damage that is suppose to scale with a certain skills but in ARPG the offhand is a extremely valuable statstick that can offset that and eventually you'll get the point that attacking more would deal more DPS then increasing the damage because of limited slots in gearing.

Even then there are no true stills that REALLY make 2h shine other then maybe groundslam or certain builds like that. Even then late game then end up smashing 1000x a second but without an offhand.

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LimitedRooster wrote:

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lukeiy wrote:

In my opinion it's more a combination of aura's and %increased WED on gear that is out of control. Getting 120-150% WED just from gear is nuts. As far as crit goes, it's exponential power growth as you approach the crit cap.

Skill gems have 60 to 100% increased physical damage. Melee Splash and Multistrike add 57% increased. Increased spell damage should be in the neighborhood of 100 to 200% from gear.

Critical chance doesn't exponentially increase damage. CritChance * CritMultiplier + 1 - CritChance for the end damage multiplier. At any point an added 5% chance is going to add the same amount of damage given a certain crit damage multiplier.

That you can get near 10x the damage is the underlying issue. Huge flat damage auras are tertiary. Spectral Throw is a totally different issue; Spectral Throw is out of whack with the power level of many other ranged attacks but it isn't 10x as strong as they are.

To be blunt I personally kind of miss Diablo 2's crit system: a nice clean 2x damage. A source of increased multiplier should have been a much rarer thing; the support gem, a few nodes on the tree that are worth it if they're next to your damage source but not worth it if they're not, some very moderate amount on unique items and that's it.

IIRC in the D2 system crit was essentially worthless for damage because it only applied to base weapon damage (unkodified by stats etc). It has been a while tho.

@ragnarok: Read those numbers again. He pitched a 500 DPS weapon and afaster but lower DPS weapon. Those aren't damage per hit values.

We already had a buff for 2H weapon damage, a significant one. Maybe what they could do with though is a damage effectiveness increase for added flat damages?

One thing I would add to all this, were discussing 'fixing' the dagger issue, Im not 100% sold on the idea that theres actually much to fix. Its ok that builds requiring unthinkably amazing gear are doing looney toon dps. I dont think these tooltips in themselves are a 'problem'. Ive yet to see a crown of eyes build with a top tier phys % + top tier flat phys + top tier spell damage staff build and what the actually possibilities are there. There just isnt the hype for it.

Daggers were so hard to come by for the longest time, as anyone whos been using them forever will know. But once the builds started getting popular, Binos got added in as a way to get on the dagger hype with a strong, somewhat abundant weapon etc suddenly there was a lot more of them around. People mass alching kriss and ambusher knives, a lot more people realising what a viable dagger looked like and that a market for them existed. Melee staves are in a real bad place, partly because they just don't exist. With Hegemonys new Staff being added hopefully this will help fuel that hype, bring the builds and more of the rares into the economy etc so we can see the true state of melee staves, if and where they need love to compete.


For me where I see a problem here is not necessarily what daggers are doing right now, with realistic gear daggers are doing realistic, balanced damage. I think Hegemony and Skyforth hit on where an actual problem is in their videos, its that Bows and Wands are being severely outclassed when you look at the top end, full mirror gear setups. Daggers are melee weapons, bows and wanders should be as effective if not more so when it comes to ranged attacking. Its ok that daggers are sick for melee, and its ok that theyre sick for ranged with spec throw, but dedicated ranged attack classes/builds should be the best in their field.







This is my gem section on my shop. Look at the verified and unverified, people used to bite your hand off for a chain gem, Im selling unlinked lioneyes for 15 chaos a pop and theyre not exactly flying off the shelf when I list em. Imo this is where the problem is, a complete lack of incentive for high end gear players to go bows and wands when daggers provide a significantly better way to use ranged attacks.

What's a staff?

WTB Staff Build.

I still think the main issue is the whole idea of "3 prefixes, 3 suffixes".
There's only one top combination, in terms of raw physical damage:
% phys
% phys/acc
flat phys
attack speed
crit chance
crit multi
You will probably never get such a weapon, but it is obviously the best there is.

There's just no choice.
You cannot say "Instead of crit, I want to do more natural damage", as crit is a suffix, damage is a prefix.
You also cannot say "Instead of many small hits, I want slower, but harder hits", again, speed is a suffix, damage a prefix.

Image PoE had a different system, let's say, 1 prefix, 1 suffix, and the rare top affixes had combined stats, like these:
a) "100% damage, 20 flat damage"
b) "30% crit, 30% crit multi"
c) "20 flat damage, 20% attack speed"
d) "80% damage, 20% reduced stun treshold"
e) "20% crit chance, 25% attack speed"
...with more common affixes being not combined, like only "70% damage" or "30% attackspeed" or "20 flat damage"...
...and you may only choose/craft/use two out of those on a weapon (the numbers are just made up, of course, this is not meant to be a balanced alternative, and I completly ignored elemental damage and accuracy etc, but I guess you get the idea).

Now you actually have to make decisions:
"I want a lot of crit" -> b) + e), 50% crit chance, 30% crit multi, 25% attack speed
"I want to hit hard" -> a) + d), 180% damage, 20 flat, 20% reduced stun treshold
"I want to hit real fast" -> c) + e), 20 flat damage, 45% attack speed, 20% crit chance

... this would be a concept of choice, you would have to use a weapon that suits your needs, not just an obvious choice of "I want it all, and these six affixes are as good as it gets".

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RagnarokChu wrote:

You know that in 3 seconds the 500 dps weapon would do 1500 and the 400 dps would had done 1800 right?

~.~

Epic self-own btw.

Its called DPS, damage per SECOND for a reason.
So 400dps * 3 is 1200 not 1800...

if you meant flat damage than the inital 500/400dps was useless.
also 400*1,5 != 500

The example should have been 333,33 dam per 1,5spd vs 500 dam per 1 spd. (same dps but faster should be better most of the time due to obvious reasons)

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Peterlerock wrote:

... this would be a concept of choice, you would have to use a weapon that suits your needs, not just an obvious choice of "I want it all, and these six affixes are as good as it gets".

That's why different bases exist.

For e.g. Imperial Skean, Ambusher, Demon Dagger.

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Chundadragon wrote:

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Peterlerock wrote:

... this would be a concept of choice, you would have to use a weapon that suits your needs, not just an obvious choice of "I want it all, and these six affixes are as good as it gets".

That's why different bases exist.

For e.g. Imperial Skean, Ambusher, Demon Dagger.

That's not enough.

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Peterlerock wrote:

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Chundadragon wrote:

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Peterlerock wrote:

... this would be a concept of choice, you would have to use a weapon that suits your needs, not just an obvious choice of "I want it all, and these six affixes are as good as it gets".

That's why different bases exist.

For e.g. Imperial Skean, Ambusher, Demon Dagger.

That's not enough.

Very debatable.

Demon Dagger is very slow and good at dealing huge hits - good for flicker strike.

Ambusher is very fast and good at scaling auras - good for spectral throw.

You may argue from a design perspective, but from an actual gameplay point of view - everything is there already.