Scrotie wants YOU to help prevent PoE's economy from becoming more like D3's

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Wilde79 wrote:

I think this thread can be summed with "Waa waa waaa, don't let them touch my profits please."

I disagree with the bolded part above.

See, I can pretend to be witty too.

What is wrong with buyouts? Haggling sucks in this game since you'll just get called a lowballer if you don't guess the magic number in the seller's head. Buyouts prevents having to deal with those types.

I'll repeat myself: only scammers and flippers want a system where the average value of an item cant be identified fast enough. Especially not by newbies to the game and those who are not willing to stare at trade spam for hours.

poe.xyz should get moar power for another reason too: so that GGG will move their asses faster and implement an indexing system of their own.

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syrioforel wrote:

Scrotie, I would respect your position on this more if you could outline how one would methodically determine a price, in the absence of an indexer site like xyz, without manually performing the activities that xyz does. By this, I mean things like: watching trade chat and keeping track of listed offers, manually going through shop threads and reading their listed prices, manually going through shop threads and discussing prices with sellers if they don't list them, etc.

You're still in the mindset of the economy controlling you, putting every value in perspective of the economy. You should trade according to what the item is worth to you, not to "the community."

This means: looking at your gear, looking at what builds are possible in the game, looking at what items actually do, and making decisions. Yourself.

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morbo wrote:

I'll repeat myself: only scammers and flippers want a system where the average value of an item cant be identified fast enough. Especially not by newbies to the game and those who are not willing to stare at trade spam for hours.

poe.xyz should get moar power for another reason too: so that GGG will move their asses faster and implement an indexing system of their own.

I am hoping for the same thing :)

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ScrotieMcB wrote:

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syrioforel wrote:

Scrotie, I would respect your position on this more if you could outline how one would methodically determine a price, in the absence of an indexer site like xyz, without manually performing the activities that xyz does. By this, I mean things like: watching trade chat and keeping track of listed offers, manually going through shop threads and reading their listed prices, manually going through shop threads and discussing prices with sellers if they don't list them, etc.

You're still in the mindset of the economy controlling you, putting every value in perspective of the economy. You should trade according to what the item is worth to you, not to "the community."

Woudn't the choice of buying/haggling take part of what the item is worth to an individual?

I get where you're coming from tough, as I'm sure I can't say right now "for me BoR is 1 chaos" given they are running 12 exalts.

However I do have the choice to wait for a price drop (as BoR, for me, is not worth 12 exalteds), or a seller who needs a quick sale, or does not value it as much and snag one for maybe... 6-7; done it with the oh so popular two exalted rat's nest which I purchased for 6 chaos, since for me it wasn't an item I was willing to purchase for more than 10 chaos.

Also here's where this makes noise to me, even if you took out b/o's from indexers, woudn't a set ammount of sellers asking for a starting point or whatever value on X item already sway people towards that price? how do you effectively stop that?

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ScrotieMcB wrote:

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syrioforel wrote:

Scrotie, I would respect your position on this more if you could outline how one would methodically determine a price, in the absence of an indexer site like xyz, without manually performing the activities that xyz does. By this, I mean things like: watching trade chat and keeping track of listed offers, manually going through shop threads and reading their listed prices, manually going through shop threads and discussing prices with sellers if they don't list them, etc.

You're still in the mindset of the economy controlling you, putting every value in perspective of the economy. You should trade according to what the item is worth to you, not to "the community."

This means: looking at your gear, looking at what builds are possible in the game, looking at what items actually do, and making decisions. Yourself.

That's how economics works.

I asked earlier how you might price a multistrike gem in a vacuum, not knowing the relative drop rates or the demand for the gem. I re-ask that question.

I want a concrete number with justification.


EDIT: I want to elaborate.

Consider the value of a 6L white chestpiece that is of a relatively easy to obtain base type. Without considering the value of the 6L to the community, you have two options for acquiring the 6L:

1) Craft it. This has an expected cost in fusings. It is high.
2) Buy it.

Keeping yourself to those two options, any price that's less than the crafting price is worth taking. (BTW, this is much higher than the price on the market right now.)

Your other option is to reject using the 6L, and find another configuration of gear that achieves the same purpose. However, without the ability to price against offers from the community, your only method of spending currency to improve your gear is crafting. This is notoriously expensive, and all (sane) market prices are cheaper than the expected crafting cost of that item.

If you're buying a gem, the alternative is to go get the gem yourself. That can take a while :|.

Now, let's look at the other end. Say you're selling a gear piece A because you found a (strictly!) better gear piece B. How do you price your sell? What is gear piece A worth to you right now ?.

Without considering what A might sell compared to comparable items, piece A is worthless to you (on softcore, with 1 character). It serves no purpose because gear piece B is strictly better. So any positively valued price is worth taking.

For the seller, considering the community's valuation increases the price (the alternative is for the item to rot in the stash), and for the buyer it decreases the price (the alternative is crafting, which spendy!).

*** Note: Since GGG doesn't even release link probabilities and mod roll probabilities, it's even harder for the buyer to determine anything of reason.

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johnKeys wrote:

I cannot sort out the zombie apocalypse that is the in-game trade-chat.
I cannot follow the "refresh and you miss it" trade forum.
I cannot deal with some of scum bags regularly lurking in-game trade, and swooping like a vulture on any unsuspecting "WTB".

that site helped me find what I was looking for, and quickly get back to playing the game.
that site helped me find a few surviving members, of the endangered species that is the honest, polite PoE trader.

and while xyz's suggestion is indeed going to promote the site, and improve it's usefulness even further, it also has a by-product of eliminating a specific kind of scam: selling a version of a popular unique, that cannot be 4+ linked because it's item level is too low.

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bhavv wrote:

Actually the best fix to the economy would be to make the whole game self found.

Those 2 ideas sum up my opinion. Wouldn't care a game without trading, hell, I would love it. But when you leveling from 20 to 50 without ANY (really, even used some alch trying to "craft" my own gear without successs), you have to trade. And wasting time reading all forum shops that just stays 10 seconds at the first 2 pages looking for a decent upgrade sucks. Won't comment anything about trading chat...

When GGG releases their long commented trading new feature, we will see if poe.xyz is still good to the game or not. But for now, those kind of sites need to exists.

Scrotie, you usually have good ideas, but won't support this one.

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GhostOfLiemannen wrote:

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ScrotieMcB wrote:

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syrioforel wrote:

Scrotie, I would respect your position on this more if you could outline how one would methodically determine a price, in the absence of an indexer site like xyz, without manually performing the activities that xyz does. By this, I mean things like: watching trade chat and keeping track of listed offers, manually going through shop threads and reading their listed prices, manually going through shop threads and discussing prices with sellers if they don't list them, etc.

You're still in the mindset of the economy controlling you, putting every value in perspective of the economy. You should trade according to what the item is worth to you, not to "the community."

Woudn't the choice of buying/haggling take part of what the item is worth to an individual?

I get where you're coming from tough, as I'm sure I can't say right now "for me BoR is 1 chaos" given they are running 12 exalts.

However I do have the choice to wait for a price drop (as BoR, for me, is not worth 12 exalteds), or a seller who needs a quick sale, or does not value it as much and snag one for maybe... 6-7; done it with the oh so popular two exalted rat's nest which I purchased for 6 chaos, since for me it wasn't an item I was willing to purchase for more than 10 chaos.

Also here's where this makes noise to me, even if you took out b/o's from indexers, woudn't a set ammount of sellers asking for a starting point or whatever value on X item already sway people towards that price? how do you effectively stop that?

As a buyer, if a price is too high, you don't buy. You find other options.

If you cannot find other options, you're in no position to claim the price was too high. Maybe you can't meet the price. Then, you'll have to find a way to allow yourself to meet the price if you really need that item. Otherwise, you're screwed.

As a seller, if no one is buying, you drop your price.

If sellers don't hold monopoly power, there's incentive to undercut the competition among sellers, and the price will drop if they start off too high.

If sellers do hold monopoly power, they will rip you off a bit.

If prices start too high, they eventually drop. Otherwise, they weren't too high.

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GhostOfLiemannen wrote:

Also here's where this makes noise to me, even if you took out b/o's from indexers, woudn't a set ammount of sellers asking for a starting point or whatever value on X item already sway people towards that price? how do you effectively stop that?

You don't. But don't ask me why the OP overlooks this -- I get the feeling Scrotie's doing so because of his flawed assumption that trading should be considered a mini-game for all participants.