Just saw the price of that d3 remake.. called d4.. 69 EURO fkn standart edition??

"

Nubatron wrote:

You won't get pushback on better QoL or accessibility. You might when you discuss the specifics of what that means though.

Sure, and when I say accessibility in this context, it's for the type of player, and their knowledge/experience, not their physical ability to play then game (through disability or similar)

Some areas would be like the crazy amount of clicking in PoE. What stacks and what doesn't. The tooltip being woefully inadequate to the point of misleading or downright false, to crafting confusion, an overall lack of explanation on the most basic terms and scaling.

It's goes futher with 3rd tools like PoB, craft of Exile, Neversink filters, TFT, etc... and finally the investment it takes to stay current with whats happening in the game (patch notes, manifestos, balance swings, on so on)

Trade, and solo vs multiplayer balance is probably too subjective here, but overall PoE is a very difficult game to to access, let alone play consistently without significant investment. I'm sure that's fine for some, but it shouldn't be surprising that it's terrible generally speaking for far more folks (especially who they are targeting recently for marketing)

"

Nubatron wrote:

Popular vs. Good. Very different things. One is quantitative and the other is qualitative. Or more specifically objective vs. subjective

Sometimes yes, but also not really in general, from a data standpoint.

If you go to a 5-star steak restaurant that's popular in your city, has a ton of great reviews, and critical acclaim, and you don't have a good experience, it doesn't mean the place is trash. Imo that's totally unreasonable, even if that was your personal experience. (Which could be totally valid)

In more simple terms mathematically, if 10,000 people enjoy or like something, and 10 do not, it doesn't mean anything more than less than 1% of people don't like it, and 99% do.

If statistical analysis doesn't mean much to you that's fine, but I do think it worth taking into account. The specific reasons around the "why" are more subjective than the overall sum of its parts and tends to cloud the issue.

At leats that's how I tend to look at it.

"

DarthSki44 wrote:

"

Nubatron wrote:

You won't get pushback on better QoL or accessibility. You might when you discuss the specifics of what that means though.

Sure, and when I say accessibility in this context, it's for the type of player, and their knowledge/experience, not their physical ability to play then game (through disability or similar)

Some areas would be like the crazy amount of clicking in PoE. What stacks and what doesn't. The tooltip being woefully inadequate to the point of misleading or downright false, to crafting confusion, an overall lack of explanation on the most basic terms and scaling.

It's goes futher with 3rd tools like PoB, craft of Exile, Neversink filters, TFT, etc... and finally the investment it takes to stay current with whats happening in the game (patch notes, manifestos, balance swings, on so on)

Trade, and solo vs multiplayer balance is probably too subjective here, but overall PoE is a very difficult game to to access, let alone play consistently without significant investment. I'm sure that's fine for some, but it shouldn't be surprising that it's terrible generally speaking for far more folks (especially who they are targeting recently for marketing)

In that context of accessibility, they definitely could do better to explain the game. The tutorial is woefully limited. I've always thought that they could have a guided gameplay with 5-10 basic archetypes with gem/skill tree/equipment suggestions along the way that can make it to and do white maps comfortably. I've even advocated for quest rewards to be a bit more deterministic than unidentified randomness including leveling uniques.

Third party tools are tough. I don't believe they are sanctioned, nor do I think GGG wants them. But since they're third party, you can't completely stop it. The existence of POB undermines the intentional mystique that I think they preferred with how things scale and underlying mechanics.

Trading tools have been more integrated into the official website, so that was a move in the right direction. Bot-like trading tools are probably not above board, but also hard to crack down on. The wiki is now hosted by GGG (not maintained, hosted).

I know some people say POB is a necessity, but I don't use it. My builds are not perfect, but they don't need to be. I think the issue is when people assume they need to squeeze every ounce of power out of everything to beat the game. I guess they could just admit full defeat on this front and integrate a POB like thing even though I'm very sure they don't want it to exist in the first place.

Either way, 3rd party tools are not GGG tools. So, it's hard to hold them accountable to them. But over time they can come to terms with the necessary evils and compromises like they have with the adoption of a poe.trade function, hosting the wiki, providing the skill tree json for 3rd party tools, etc.

"

DarthSki44 wrote:

"

Nubatron wrote:

Popular vs. Good. Very different things. One is quantitative and the other is qualitative. Or more specifically objective vs. subjective

Sometimes yes, but also not really in general, from a data standpoint.

If you go to a 5-star steak restaurant that's popular in your city, has a ton of great reviews, and critical acclaim, and you don't have a good experience, it doesn't mean the place is trash. Imo that's totally unreasonable, even if that was your personal experience. (Which could be totally valid)

In more simple terms mathematically, if 10,000 people enjoy or like something, and 10 do not, it doesn't mean anything more than less than 1% of people don't like it, and 99% do.

If statistical analysis doesn't mean much to you that's fine, but I do think it worth taking into account. The specific reasons around the "why" are more subjective than the overall sum of its parts and tends to cloud the issue.

At leats that's how I tend to look at it.

The response to that is in the part of my quote that you cut out.

That 5-star restaurant is probably popular. And I'm sure a lot of people would call it good. But if I went there and found it to be bad, I would give it a low rating, and my low rating would be right without objection because it's my personal experience with the restaurant. The best I would be able to do is say that others consider it to be good, but I don't.

That's the part of my quote that was snipped but is quite important in this context.

Just because you want me to say the restaurant is good doesn't mean I should. For me, it's a bad restaurant.

"

Nubatron wrote:

I know some people say POB is a necessity, but I don't use it. My builds are not perfect, but they don't need to be. I think the issue is when people assume they need to squeeze every ounce of power out of everything to beat the game. I guess they could just admit full defeat on this front and integrate a POB like thing even though I'm very sure they don't want it to exist in the first place.

Either way, 3rd party tools are not GGG tools. So, it's hard to hold them accountable to them. But over time they can come to terms with the necessary evils and compromises like they have with the adoption of a poe.trade function, hosting the wiki, providing the skill tree json for 3rd party tools, etc.

The tools are "necessary" simply becausee GGG has left a gap there. Intentionally so it seems. Im not so sure the exact reason, whether it is just cheaper and easier, or a more nuanced ethical decision, but either way it impacts the player directly.

You might be able to get away with it (not using PoB) due to your experience with the game, but even so, many of the top, most advanced and experienced players, use and theory craft with PoB.

The lack of an in-house planner, and simple ehp and dps calculations are quite frankly shocking at this point given the depth of the game. Hell there are no visible damage indicators, not even a training dummy to test on. There is no way for a player to know if +1 fire gems or 28% fire dot multi is an upgrade or better on their amulet. What affix can I roll on this scepter? Is fire damage better than spell damage for this skill? RF isn't a hit so the exposure Exarch mod won't work on your gloves.

How in the hell is a "normal" player supposed to do anything with this type of immersion / information? You don't even know what you don't know (or if things are even working properly). You cannot even preview Ascendancy choices and skills until you are literally in the lab and have to decide. Just wild.

"

DarthSki44 wrote:

"

Nubatron wrote:

I know some people say POB is a necessity, but I don't use it. My builds are not perfect, but they don't need to be. I think the issue is when people assume they need to squeeze every ounce of power out of everything to beat the game. I guess they could just admit full defeat on this front and integrate a POB like thing even though I'm very sure they don't want it to exist in the first place.

Either way, 3rd party tools are not GGG tools. So, it's hard to hold them accountable to them. But over time they can come to terms with the necessary evils and compromises like they have with the adoption of a poe.trade function, hosting the wiki, providing the skill tree json for 3rd party tools, etc.

The tools are "necessary" simply becausee GGG has left a gap there. Intentionally so it seems. Im not so sure the exact reason, whether it is just cheaper and easier, or a more nuanced ethical decision, but either way it impacts the player directly.

You might be able to get away with it (not using PoB) due to your experience with the game, but even so, many fo the top, most advanced and experienced players use and theory craft with PoB.

The lack of an in-house planner, and simple ehp and dps calculations are quite frankly shocking at this point given the depth of the game. Hell there are no visible damage indicators, not even a training dummy to test on. There is no way for a player to know if +1 fire gems or 28% fire dot multi is an upgrade or better on their amulet. What affix can I roll on this scepter? Is fire damage better than spell damage for this skill? RF isn't a hit so exposure Exarch mod won't work on your gloves.

How in the hell is a "normal" player supposed to do anything with this type of immersion / information? You don't even know want you don't know (or if things are even working properly). You cannot even preview Ascendancy choices and skills until you are literally in the lab and have to decide. Just wild.

I've compiled a list for you of other popular ARPGs that have in game build/gear planners.

^

Super low tier bait.

There are a number of genre specific games that have far better in game tooltips, explanation of mechanics, testing areas or dummies, ability to preview skills (and mastery type expansions), and more.

I'm not even remotely falling for this that PoE is comparatively equal with other games in this area. It's laughably, objectively, poor in terms of information. It's likely the main reason PoB exists to begin with. (And please explain why they are supposedly working on an in-house version, which I'm not holding my breath on)

Edit: see also PoE's Chinese server vs their world server for comparison in this area. You don't have to look far it seems.

"

DarthSki44 wrote:

There are a number of genre specific games that have far better in game tooltips, explanation of mechanics, testing areas or dummies, ability to preview skills (and mastery type expansions), and more.

Well, they by and large wouldn't exactly have a game mechanics manual that could kill a rhino if printed in hardcover and thrown well, or scare away a honey badger if it could read.

"

DarthSki44 wrote:

"

Nubatron wrote:

I know some people say POB is a necessity, but I don't use it. My builds are not perfect, but they don't need to be. I think the issue is when people assume they need to squeeze every ounce of power out of everything to beat the game. I guess they could just admit full defeat on this front and integrate a POB like thing even though I'm very sure they don't want it to exist in the first place.

Either way, 3rd party tools are not GGG tools. So, it's hard to hold them accountable to them. But over time they can come to terms with the necessary evils and compromises like they have with the adoption of a poe.trade function, hosting the wiki, providing the skill tree json for 3rd party tools, etc.

The tools are "necessary" simply becausee GGG has left a gap there. Intentionally so it seems. Im not so sure the exact reason, whether it is just cheaper and easier, or a more nuanced ethical decision, but either way it impacts the player directly.

You might be able to get away with it (not using PoB) due to your experience with the game, but even so, many of the top, most advanced and experienced players, use and theory craft with PoB.

The lack of an in-house planner, and simple ehp and dps calculations are quite frankly shocking at this point given the depth of the game. Hell there are no visible damage indicators, not even a training dummy to test on. There is no way for a player to know if +1 fire gems or 28% fire dot multi is an upgrade or better on their amulet. What affix can I roll on this scepter? Is fire damage better than spell damage for this skill? RF isn't a hit so the exposure Exarch mod won't work on your gloves.

How in the hell is a "normal" player supposed to do anything with this type of immersion / information? You don't even know what you don't know (or if things are even working properly). You cannot even preview Ascendancy choices and skills until you are literally in the lab and have to decide. Just wild.

I'm only guessing what GGG wanted/intended, but you answered your own question...

Question:

"

DarthSki44 wrote:

How in the hell is a "normal" player supposed to do anything with this type of immersion / information? .

Answer:

"

DarthSki44 wrote:

You might be able to get away with it (not using PoB) due to your experience with the game, but even so, many of the top, most advanced and experienced players, use and theory craft with PoB.

I think they intended for this to be a game that players never completely understood and the mechanics and number crunching to be there but still maintain some mystique. And the answer to figuring it being time and patience with trial and error. I honestly think that I am exactly their target audience for what they aspired. They also built parts of the game to target various segments of the gaming community and skill level. Unfortunately, many players expect to do everything in the game and that somehow the game should accommodate their skill level and commitment. A prime example is players thinking they should get to level 100 because it exists, whereas level 100 was originally intended to be aspirational and achieved by very few. Me getting level 100 years ago was actually a sad moment for me, but that's a side discussion.

There is a gap because it was never meant to be a thing. But this is where aspiration runs headfirst into reality. The third-party tools exist, and the game has balanced around people having that kind of information and crunching all the power in the tool. Since most players are using it and the game is likely balanced around having that level of information, GGG should consider integrating a tool for use.

"

DarthSki44 wrote:

^

Super low tier bait.

There are a number of genre specific games that have far better in game tooltips, explanation of mechanics, testing areas or dummies, ability to preview skills (and mastery type expansions), and more.

I'm not even remotely falling for this that PoE is comparatively equal with other games in this area. It's laughably, objectively, poor in terms of information. It's likely the main reason PoB exists to begin with. (And please explain why they are supposedly working on an in-house version, which I'm not holding my breath on)

Edit: see also PoE's Chinese server vs their world server for comparison in this area. You don't have to look far it seems.

Right yeah - maxroll.gg, grimtools.com, www.lastepochtools.com, wolcen.dev etc. All these things exist because people have nothing better to do with their time than make unnecessary websites. GGG bad