In 2022, we would have a lot of H&S games. Will PoE survive it?

So, in order to replace PoE, it would have to be PoE? That seems somehow circular reasoning.

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DarthSki44 wrote:

Second, LA isnt pay to win, unless you are a massive idiot, with fuck you money, and are worried about a few dozen hours of gameplay. You cannot pay for power, which is what winning is in PvP.

I played lost ark, once t3 content is released - it will become total p2w game,at least it was that way in russia and korea some time ago


Also, it's pve content for t3 gearing is really bad - you gonna run exact same 2-3 instances for houndreds of times

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Networm13 wrote:

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Shagsbeard wrote:

Nonsense. You'll be here for PoE2 and quite a few leagues after that. We really have no idea when that's going to drop. Could be with 3.17. They love to surprise us. Or they could use it as a carrot stringing us along for years to come. We simply don't know.

But you'll be here for it.

I really wonder if PoE2 will fix the lag and disconnect issue?
Will PoE2 fix the unfair one shot mechanics?
Will PoE2 fix the graphic cluterfack?
Will PoE2 fix the character progression instead of just mindless currency farming and trading for stuff you need?

This is why i dislike that triple G called patch 4.0 POE2. It's basically a glorified Patch 3.0.
As expected it causes false expectations, even two years after ExileCon.

To answer your questions. POE2 is mainly a new campaign and and links are moved to gems. Thats it. Yeah there are also new ascendencies but ascendencies as a concept are already old news, and the new ones will be a mixture of old mechanics (except shape shifter).
Base game still the same. How the currencies and mechanics work still the same. Endgame still the same (mainly maps). Also the bloat from over one decade underneath (old leage mechanics, lots of useless league splinters,etc).

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knorpl wrote:

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satanttin wrote:

PoE will survive easily

Perhaps, but looking at the market. Developers who did not listen to the players, sooner or later closed their projects. Maybe this is how it is for you. But I don't know if you will want to play a game that is empty. Especially since the trade looks like the player has to be online.
I hope they don't wake up too late with the changes. Once the game is going extinct. Because you know what it looks like when "a drowning person grabs a razor".

would you care to give us an example of an arpg that listened to their community and has had more success than poe?

name a few rpgs of any kind that have had significantly more long term success than poe because they listened to their players?

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DarthSki44 wrote:

And lastly, PoE should be absolutely dominating the market and genre. Not begging for the scraps of some thousands of concurrent players. Even at its highest peak, during it's most popular launch, was it even a fraction of Diablo 3 or D2R for example. Hell D2R had MORE THAN DOUBLE the record of PoE player concurrency of all time, weeks after launch, even with pretty bad server issues.

you care to link where you are getting that data from?

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DarthSki44 wrote:

The market is ripe for competition, and quite frankly PoE is moving in the wrong direction. The data shows it in stark reality. (3.15 & 3.16)

Maybe GGG can turn it around, but the real question is why are they having to turn anything around with very little competition?

their 3 biggest league launches ever were this year. one of those leagues you just listed as needing a turn around is in that top 3 league launches ever in 9 years of the game existing. the data shows 2021 was by far the games most successful year, and the blip of 3.15 was still as successful as the peaks of 2 years ago.

"

And lastly, PoE should be absolutely dominating the market and genre. Not begging for the scraps of some thousands of concurrent players.

in what way is it not dominating the genre?

While I'm totally up for a healthy competition because it pushes the devs to new limits and makes the game better, realistically it's hard to imagine an ARPG that could kill PoE.

It's nice to play some neat ARPGs now and then, but they just don't have the replayability and the sheer amount of content that PoE has so in the end they last only for a while and then you have to return to PoE because there are no better long-term alternatives.

Imho, to seriously damage PoE one of two scenarios needs to happen:

1) There needs to be a steady supply of ARPG games so that once you are done with one you jump to the next one so you don't have time to look back to PoE. But since the ARPG genre has been so dry since forever I don't see it happening.

2) Some serious gaming company needs to make a targeted effort to kill PoE making alternative that has a comparable endgame to keep the ARPG fans busy. I'm actually surprised that someone like Blizzard hasn't done it already. Over the years they had every opportunity to expand D3 endgame and add more content instead of their boring endgame which consists of grinding infinite paragons and greater rifts.

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Snorkle_uk wrote:

in what way is it not dominating the genre?

https://mmo-population.com/list

Since it has some numbers lets assume they are true and poe has 25 mil players.

Compared to.
https://www.polygon.com/2015/8/4/9097497/diablo-3-sales-30-million-units

We just don't know what markets are in those numbers, but i wouldn't call it dominating.

But yeah, poe is sharing a top place with diablo and warframe, it will be alright.

@Snorkle

If you don't believe anything I said then just say so. I'm getting tired of posting links constantly for the same people that don't want to even remotely research or check things on their own. You could easily do a Google search and get what you needed in response to my post. (Blizzard server issues D2R)

Also you mentioned PoE's large player counts in recent leagues. While this is true(mostly due to the massive amount of money spent on sponsored streamers), the retention percentage rates have been the WORST in their history. (And no, if you want a link to the data look it up yourself or check my post history for this link, I'm not doing it again.)

Also I think its worth noting that Poe is F2P. They really need player engagement to monetize the game. Retention matters, more than total players to a degree, most likely, because their revenue conversion algorithms are based on gametime. Basically if you have more players interested in your game (Great!), but by percentage they are all leaving quickly, without spending money, that is a financial disaster.

Let's see how their 2021 financials come out. I think the arrow is pointing down, and there will be a loss. You seem to think they are setting records and dominating the market. We will know soon enough.

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Snorkle_uk wrote:

Perhaps, but looking at the market. Developers who did not listen to the players, sooner or later closed their projects. Maybe this is how it is for you. But I don't know if you will want to play a game that is empty. Especially since the trade looks like the player has to be online.
I hope they don't wake up too late with the changes. Once the game is going extinct. Because you know what it looks like when "a drowning person grabs a razor".

So far they haven't had much competition. Only Diablo, which in my opinion is not a good competition. Because he only uses the brand for marketing. Blizzart showed us that it is all about money, i.e. as usual, not about the player or the quality of the game (gameplay). They fell with Warcraft 3, from what I read for D2R, he didn't have a good start either. And D3 well, for me it's just a gentle springboard. So, without competition, it's hard to talk about listening to players, since there are no other "better" products on the market, you will spend your product your way, not the way players want.That's not bad either, but the numbers speak for themselves. And they say that after a few weeks of league, even 50% of players will leave the game. There are also a lot of players who nostalgically return to the forum or the game website, hoping that something will change and they will be able to return to the game.

Hardly anyone starts ARPG, a lot of work on it, especially with the plot, which must stick to a logical whole with each new content. For this problem with end-game, most focus only on grindr. The problem is that the game is about collecting the best eq, defeating the best Boss, and once you do, getting richer, but what to do with it after the leagues last 3 months. As a player who has a fondness for the character, I prefer to experience new adventures with her from the beginning of the game to the end. That's why I don't always like to start my league with a new character. Instead of rotating leagues four times a year I would prefer a finished game where content will be expanded and mechanics added. So that I don't have to make a new character every now and then. Unless I decide for myself that I want it.

Currently, with PoE it looks like we are talking about a "vision", but in fact we have a game that is not and will not be finished, because every new league is more and more bugs and op builds, which with the next "league" are equated with zero. So there is no "vision" for me here. I understand the balance, but this is a bit of an exaggeration. To sum up as I see it: We have a new league with which we get a new game along with the need to create a new character. Every league is not visible in our progress, only in the ability to create "improved" builds. These, however, are limited to the finish line, because you have to farm currency, and you won't do it with anything. Until we are finally rich enough to do something mega OP. The meta builds change every league, only because those that were OP before, are weakened or completely end up in the cemetery. I like Grind, but I like it better when my wealth doesn't fade away every 3 months. From this perspective, it's not fun to start with 0 a new business and then go bankrupt after 3 months.

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knorpl wrote:

... but in fact we have a game that is not and will not be finished, because every new league is more and more bugs and op builds, which with the next "league" are equated with zero. So there is no "vision" for me here.

You just descriped the vision tho.

Introducing new stuff and shifting the meta all the time to keep it fresh - as in it will never be a "finished" game.
Thats the whole point.

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pifpep wrote:

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Snorkle_uk wrote:

in what way is it not dominating the genre?

https://mmo-population.com/list

Since it has some numbers lets assume they are true and poe has 25 mil players.

Compared to.
https://www.polygon.com/2015/8/4/9097497/diablo-3-sales-30-million-units

We just don't know what markets are in those numbers, but i wouldn't call it dominating.

But yeah, poe is sharing a top place with diablo and warframe, it will be alright.

diablo 3 sold a lot of copies, and then lost virtually all its players right away and never held them. they then released reaper of souls, which they gave away copies of the original diablo 3 with which massively padded their diablo 3 sales figures, and then they gave them away to everyone who bought game time in world of warcraft, which probably artificially doubled their sales figures, and they had a lot of players again then lost them all again instantly.

d3 had a new season launch less than a week ago and right now its got about half as many people playing it as poe has according to traffic counters for both games. theres no traffic counter for D2R, the only thing i can see is twitch viewers and it has less of those than D3 as I am writing this.


diablo 3 launched 10 years ago and gave away more than half the copies that show up on its sales figures to people, many of whom already had the game or never wanted to play it. in our household we own 5 copies of diablo 3 because we both bought a copy each and were then given another 3 free copies. youre talking about a game whos highest player peak was almost surely 10 years ago when it released vs poe whos 3 highest player peaks have been this year.


poe obviously doesnt have 25 mill players either, same way d3 didnt have 30+ million. f2p etc, but we know they have multiple millions of individual players each league this year, even 3.15. according to the numbers we can see diablo 3 launched its latest season 6 days ago and right now when in writing this has about 1/10 of the players poe had a week into its last league launch.

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knorpl wrote:

So far they haven't had much competition. Only Diablo, which in my opinion is not a good competition. Because he only uses the brand for marketing. Blizzart showed us that it is all about money, i.e. as usual, not about the player or the quality of the game (gameplay). They fell with Warcraft 3, from what I read for D2R, he didn't have a good start either. And D3 well, for me it's just a gentle springboard. So, without competition, it's hard to talk about listening to players, since there are no other "better" products on the market

well ur the one who was talking about listening to players, i just asked you to give an example to back up the point you were making about it.

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knorpl wrote:

That's not bad either, but the numbers speak for themselves.

the numbers say that 2021 was poes most successful year by a long way.


im not saying the game is perfect, im not even saying the game is in a good state ive got many complaints that i voice here regularly.

but if people are going to talk numbers, make big statements etc that are not an opinion but rather a calculation of data that supposedly proves something then im gonna prod at them to see if they add up.

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DarthSki44 wrote:

@Snorkle

If you don't believe anything I said then just say so.

youre making a statement, i just said post a link to show the figures ur quoting us, shouldnt be too hard to do seeing as youre the one using these figures to make your point.

i looked it up for you, i saw a blizz post saying they had a couple of 100 thousand player peak on one of their realms which caused an issue on launch but i couldnt see anything that said they had double poes highest ever player count many weeks after launch even after massive server issues, or whatever it was you claimed. i didnt see any exact numbers, so you could link where you are seeing these actual numbers for d2 and d3 that show how poe is not currently dominating the arpg market, which is your claim.

now you are talking about their revenue being tied to retention etc, which you dont actually have proof for do you? can you show that they dont sell most of their mtx in the first week of the league but rather as the league goes on so the sales are all about the retention rather than the player peaks? you got data for that?

i thought u were talking about an arpg dominating the genre, now ur talking about different forms of monetisation, shifting the goal posts to make it about financially successful? so given this change of what you are talking about, do you want to give us a run down of the other arpgs of the last 10 years, how much total money they have made, when they have made it and why this shows poe right now is being beaten by other arpgs and is struggling, which is your claim that you say you are making based on data?