Is pre nerf harvest actually balanced for SSF and standard players ?

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yamface wrote:

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Deadandlivin wrote:

very long post

why would anyone do any of that to farm mirrors when you can generate a 6x t1 mod item in less time? using gear that costs next to nothing. with an investment cost of also next to nothing per map?

not to mention farming mirrors has always been a time gate strategy. the later you get your builds ready to farm mirrors, the harder it gets as the price always increases over time to slowly match standard's prices. you dont have to worry about any of this when you camp harvests.

Ritual Mirror = 372 Ex.

1 6 link uber gear pre Maven: 45 Ex.
1 6L uber gear post 3X Maven: 120-150 Ex.

Good luck farming all those Mavens while Harvest Crafting from seeds.

Also, the TFT crafting wasn't cheap. An Augment Crit = 7 Ex.
Augment Speed = 10 Ex.

Either way; it was not profitable to create and sell gear. One way in time, the other in currency (spend 80 ex to create an item with 45 ex).

The only reason you wanted to farm harvest in Ritual: Custom one of a kind gear with your own twist

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rekikyo wrote:

Either way; it was not profitable to create and sell gear. One way in time, the other in currency (spend 80 ex to create an item with 45 ex).

The only reason you wanted to farm harvest in Ritual: Custom one of a kind gear with your own twist

True after doing some rough math I bought most of my gear in 3.13 already crafted. A 100 EX chest sounds expensive but its mathematicaly way cheaper than trying to craft it yourself with harvest. Especially if you get it with one or two elevated mods.

Edit:

The only people that made real bank with TfT crafting where people selling all their crafts on TfT and deticated crafting groups that used high value base uncommon items they printed with beasts and finished with harvest crafting.

But yeah 3.13 was completly broken for around 50 to 100 ex you could buy items that would have been mirror tier in any other league. Like you could have sold every single item generated that way for 50 mirrors+ on standard if 3.13 crafting would not exist.

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yamface wrote:

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Deadandlivin wrote:

very long post

why would anyone do any of that to farm mirrors when you can generate a 6x t1 mod item in less time? using gear that costs next to nothing. with an investment cost of also next to nothing per map?

not to mention farming mirrors has always been a time gate strategy. the later you get your builds ready to farm mirrors, the harder it gets as the price always increases over time to slowly match standard's prices. you dont have to worry about any of this when you camp harvests.

This is the helm I mirrored in Ritual:


I asked the person who crafted it how much he spent on it.
He said he was lucky and that it cost 1500 exalted orbs to craft.

As with all leagues, you farm Mirrors to use it on mirror tier items.

Why would I use a mirror on cheap items?
No one is arguing that.

I ran hundreds of Atoll in 3.13 for money. The money was good, but it was incompareable to other farming strategies. It also was super boring to do and annoying since you had to farm Zana missions from Atziri's Vault maps for hours every day.
Sure, I wasn't a labrunner but my build wasn't slow. Farming Harvest crafts I averaged ~8 ex/hour unless I got extremely lucky. Half the time was spent farming Zana missions while the other half was spent running White Atolls costing 12-15 chaos each in bulk.

You think Harvest farming was some glorified moneymaking strategy that invalidated every other method of making money in the game.
This is completely false. Farming Harvest for crafts was a good way of makng money for low investment if you had a fast character like a labrunner.

But doing things like Fractured Maps and farming The Feared was more than double the profit. As I said, harvest didn't invalidate anything in Ritual. If that was the case, then people wouldn't be doing other things.

As I said, Harvest was far from the most usual strategy in Ritual. Most casual people were farming Harbingers in Valdos rest, not Harvest. Even if it was less profitable, people did it because it was easier, less RNG and they didn't have to bother with TFT or learning how to profit craft.

Why would anyone farm Harvest when they could just be labrunners? Labrunners make 20 ex/hour doing the exact same thing as Harvest people. They run and add mods to other peoples items. The reason people wouldn't be farming Harvest, despite the profits being less or equal to that of other high end strategies, is the same reason people aren't labrunners:
Majority of people find it boring.

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Deadandlivin wrote:

Sure, I wasn't a labrunner but my build wasn't slow. Farming Harvest crafts I averaged ~8 ex/hour unless I got extremely lucky. Half the time was spent farming Zana missions while the other half was spent running White Atolls costing 12-15 chaos each in bulk.

Damn..... I just had Atoll set as one of my favorite maps so it dropped more often, and farmed it that way. Also, it seemed like the more I farmed Atoll, the less Harvest procced, so I didn't mind finding it on other maps.

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rekikyo wrote:

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Deadandlivin wrote:

Sure, I wasn't a labrunner but my build wasn't slow. Farming Harvest crafts I averaged ~8 ex/hour unless I got extremely lucky. Half the time was spent farming Zana missions while the other half was spent running White Atolls costing 12-15 chaos each in bulk.

Damn..... I just had Atoll set as one of my favorite maps so it dropped more often, and farmed it that way. Also, it seemed like the more I farmed Atoll, the less Harvest procced, so I didn't mind finding it on other maps.

Why did you all farm Atoll Harvest crafts? Beast farming was so much more profitabel, super fast, didnt need any interaction just zooming through maps killing red beasts and if you have some mates everyone got all the beasts for free by just sitting somewhere in the map. The money you could make by selling split and imprint beasts was insane especially before they ninja nerfed it mid league. It was one EX per map more or less guarnteed and every map took 30 sec max.

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Zerber wrote:

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rekikyo wrote:

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Deadandlivin wrote:

Sure, I wasn't a labrunner but my build wasn't slow. Farming Harvest crafts I averaged ~8 ex/hour unless I got extremely lucky. Half the time was spent farming Zana missions while the other half was spent running White Atolls costing 12-15 chaos each in bulk.

Damn..... I just had Atoll set as one of my favorite maps so it dropped more often, and farmed it that way. Also, it seemed like the more I farmed Atoll, the less Harvest procced, so I didn't mind finding it on other maps.

Why did you all farm Atoll Harvest crafts? Beast farming was so much more profitabel, super fast, didnt need any interaction just zooming through maps killing red beasts and if you have some mates everyone got all the beasts for free by just sitting somewhere in the map. The money you could make by selling split and imprint beasts was insane especially before they ninja nerfed it mid league. It was one EX per map more or less guarnteed and every map took 30 sec max.

That's the thing, everyone didn't.
There wereseveral other strategies, many of which were more profitable than Harvest farming.

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Deadandlivin wrote:

You think Harvest farming was some glorified moneymaking strategy that invalidated every other method of making money in the game.
This is completely false. Farming Harvest for crafts was a good way of makng money for low investment if you had a fast character like a labrunner.

no i dont think that. harvest was not broken because of the money you could make from it. it was broken because it bypassed the need for money in the first place to upgrade your gear AND it was faster than farming a mirror (via other means) to copy someone else's item.. along with the whole thing of low startup investment, easy content, etc etc. and the final product from harvests competes with literal mirror tier items.

the helmet you linked is a rare exception. that essence mod skyrocketed the price to craft that, it is otherwise relatively cheap to craft even if you factor in the elevations. most items dont use an essence mod. ever since harvest was nerfed, countless people tried linking items to convince me that harvest didnt solve the steep crafting costs, but the only 2 types of items ive ever run into were: weapons, specifically physical weapons, and essence mod gear

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yamface wrote:

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Deadandlivin wrote:

You think Harvest farming was some glorified moneymaking strategy that invalidated every other method of making money in the game.
This is completely false. Farming Harvest for crafts was a good way of makng money for low investment if you had a fast character like a labrunner.

no i dont think that. harvest was not broken because of the money you could make from it. it was broken because it bypassed the need for money in the first place to upgrade your gear AND it was faster than farming a mirror (via other means) to copy someone else's item.. along with the whole thing of low startup investment, easy content, etc etc. and the final product from harvests competes with literal mirror tier items.

the helmet you linked is a rare exception. that essence mod skyrocketed the price to craft that, it is otherwise relatively cheap to craft even if you factor in the elevations. most items dont use an essence mod. ever since harvest was nerfed, countless people tried linking items to convince me that harvest didnt solve the steep crafting costs, but the only 2 types of items ive ever run into were: weapons, specifically physical weapons, and essence mod gear

That depends on how many Atolls/hour you were able to run.
Bypassed the need for money?

Harvest carfts cost anywhere betwen 1 and 15 exalted Orbs.
Add/remove Fires/colds/lightnings et.c. were in the 1 ex range.
Life crafts were 2 exalted orbs. Speed and crit was ~10 ex. Add/remove Influence was around 15 ex.

I probably ran over 1000 Atolls in Ritual to craft my own gear. Know how many Add/remove Influence I got? I got 1 during the entire league.

If you wanted to craft perfect gear you weren't farming crafts yourself. You bought crafts from Atoll speed runners on TFT.
To do that you needed currency. The richest people, being Hideout warriors, Fractured map farmers and deep delvers printed literal mirrors everyday from doing the actual best content in the game. These people then used the currency to craft their gear by buying hundreds of harvest crafts in bulk from TFT.

How did Harvest crafting bypass the need for currency?
You still need Chaos and Exalted orbs to buy:
- Bases
- Maven Orbs
- Awakened Orbs
- Essences/Fossils
- Pure Exalted to craft metamods
- Alterations to prepare Awakened Orbs
- Beast Crafts (Frogs)

The list goes on. Harvest didn't invalidate any of the other crafting methods. The best items in the game were crafted the same as they always have been. The difference now was that several layers of RNG was stripped and you always finished your item by forcing T1 mods with add/removes.

Things like Fossils and Essences were even more expensive when Harvest was around because they were required to prepare your base with some of the most essential mods. I remember selling Bulk Deafening Essences of Scorn and Spite in ritual for 35 chaos per essence. If anything, harvest actually ENABLED other crafting methods like essences and fossils to be widely used since it wasn't all just a casino gamble to use those crafting reagents.

You're incorrect.
It wasn't the essence mod that made my helmet expensive.
What made it cost thousands of Exalted Orbs was the third Elevated prefix and having to metacraft +3 minion levels by slamming Exalted Orbs with a 2% chance to hit the mod. The suffixes weren't very hard to craft. You just spammed Essences until you got T1 crit and elevated it. Then you augmented Cold and did Add remove for T1 Hypothermi followed by reforge keep suffix until you get another infleunced prefix. Then you Maven Orbed with a 1/3 chance to remove the prefix and elevate Hypothermia with a 2/3 chance to start over.

Once you got all suffixes sorted you had to metacraft the prefixes or spam reforge keep suffix until you got T1 minion damage and another influenced mod, craft suffixes cannot be changed and elevate the minion damage.
Once elevated you had a 2% chance to get +3 to levels from an Exalted Slam.

Meaning you had to do the process of elevating minion damage, on average 50 times before finishing the helm.

How was this helm an exception? There were SEVERAL mirror tier items in ritual. Everything from 1000 ex BV helms to 1400 ex quadruple elevated Explodey chests.

The standard for mirror tier items were elevated in 3.13.
No longer was a random Stygian belt with T1 life, tripple T1 resistances and 10% increased life considered a mirror tier belt. There was ALOT of crazy items that can't be crafted any longer being mirror serviced during Ritual.

Minion builds alone had 5 chase mirror items constantly being replicated.
This include perfect minion helms, perfect double dmg Alva Hatred minion wand, perfect +2 minimum charges Titanium spirit shields, perfect ES Vaal Regalias and perfect elevated +2 Spectre ES boots.

Several builds had these type of items that cost hundreds or thousands of Exalted orbs to craft. My helm was not a rare exception. It was one amongst many.

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Deadandlivin wrote:

You're incorrect.
It wasn't the essence mod that made my helmet expensive.

yes, it was. without the essence mod, you dont craft that helmet using those steps. you start by spamming bound fossils for +3 minions right off the bat plus lv20 minion damage. this takes 50 bound fossils on average. then you elevate that mod, and the rest is more or less the same process due to both hypothermia and crit being deterministically crafted. without that essence mod this helmet is cheaper to make by at least an order of magnitude. your helmet was a pretty rare exception. just because that item slot can elevate mods doesnt make it ridiculously pricey as that helmet was.

also im not sure why you think you needed to buy the harvest crafts, but you didnt need to. aug crit/speed were not that rare. the only truly rare aug was aug influence but that had niche uses. most of the time you couldve simply used another aug type or crafted around it by starting the item with the hardest mods first.

Harvest was actually worse for SSF players than traders. Least trade you could do other content in game and monetize it buy your crafts/gear but harvest was be all end all of ritual SSF. Fuck cards, fossils, heist, ainsling, etc because nothing could compare to time input of harvest. So it was all-hamlet-all-the-time. I'm glad they nerfed it but would like to see more tier 4. I've seen one since ritual in about 300 harvest.