Is pre nerf harvest actually balanced for SSF and standard players ?

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Phrazz wrote:

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trixxar wrote:

Are you disagreeing that people play 2.5, 3.5, or in some cases 10 hours a day?

No, I play between 2 and 3 hours a day, and I know certain people play more than 10 hours a day.

But you really made it sound like the latter group wants it to "take 300-900 to beat the content", while they've probably beat all content there is to beat before they reach 100. I still don't see how your 2,5x90=225 or your 3,5x90=315 is relevant to Harvest at all, and how it would change with or without Harvest.

Or, more likely; They hit about level 92, begin treading water, getting killed by Drox/Sirus/Maven etc because they dont have the damage, don't know the puzzles, and keep losing 10% XP 5 times in a row every time they hit 50%.

That's most people. They may taxi other players to do content, but most don't actually progress because they don't know how to budget/spend correctly or build.

Just the other day I spent 4 ex on Deafening Essence of Wrath to try for some 36% Lightning Damage rings. Didn't get a single level 22 Herald Of thunder in 58 tries. or I would have been set.

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yamface wrote:

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rekikyo wrote:

We've already done the math here. No. It wasn't. Also, it didn't bypass the need for money. If anything, it increased it. If you wanted sure fire mods, TFT was expensive, and often required collateral. If you wanted to farm specific mods, you had to pay forward to get them, and the failure rate on many builds was quite high, with 5-6 competing mods left in the mod pool.

yes you did do the math, you said a mirror was 372 exalts and a uber 6L was 150... so what is faster: farming that mirror or just crafting that item yourself? for the record there are 2 problems with this scenario, one is that mirrors were over 600 ex in ritual, so farming for them took that much longer than just crafting the gear yourself, and secondly if the uber 6L was bis and was truly 150ex, that was not mirror worthy anyway

the bosses were not hard. a ilv76 harvest boss has no threat, my characters that wore regular rares with life and resists were facetanking them. in fact none of these harvest monsters hit hard at that low level. all the harvest mob complaints are about super juiced up t16s... not t9s

also this argument keeps getting pulled back to this talking point where apparently you have to keep buying harvest crafts. you dont. the BIGGEST selling point about harvest was that everyone can farm it with next to no investment cost. so putting pricetags on these harvest crafts is a moot talking point

I love how you think that Mirror tier gear actually ever exceeds the value of the mirror itself. No Rares EVER sell for more than a Mirror. Ever. A large part of the price is the SERVICE utility. That helm that guy posted was only worth about 225 ex in Ritual. People would use a mirror to acquire it because it was NEVER FOR SALE.

The only places where BiS was not mirror worthy was things like Chests, were are/were more associated with Bestiary than with Harvest. Splitting made all the nondeterministic mods happen. Harvest just topped it off with easy mods.

I had 7 +3/35% Minion Damage rings, because I knew that the splits were easily 3 ex and cost about 1 ex to make, and were soley available because 1 person managed to roll the +3 and inject 30 such rings into the market. Again. Bestiary. Not Harvest. Now, no such person does a thing, so your best minion rings are now redeemer, rolling the mods raw.

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The conversation never strictly got pulled back to just buying mods. I discussed both selling, buying, and farming for use.

The reality is; the mods were time consuming to farm, even if you self farmed.

Aug Life at best had 1 of 12 outcomes, and the average farm rate of an aug life was about 1 in 144. Then you also needed a remove life, and no other life mods on your gear, or you just ruined your determinism.

Crit appeared about 1/20th as often as Life, and Speed appeared about 1/25.
Chaos appeared about 1/10th.

You literally needed to farm 40-60 maps to realistically have enough augments to really try to finish something. And to make it reliable, you had to BUY THE SEEDS.

I'm sorry; you're delirious when it comes to the bosses. A lot of people had rare gear for bosses. They still do. That doesn't mean you werent using a 1.5 mil dps build +. To put this into context; I had 824% Minion Damage Redemption Sentries with Hatred, Precision, etc, and a +2 Convoking with increased Hatred Effect and 40% + Frostbite on Hit. But.... I didn't use deathmark, nor did I have more than 6k EHP. My minions did fine killing the outer mobs, but I literally couldn't get within a screen of a ilevel 84+ Janaar, because as soon as my minions wiped 300+ minions, they were already replaced. I could kill Oshabi. The rares almost made Janaar impossible, unless I was able to task through all those mobs without pulling aggro. Occasionally I could. Usually I couldn't.
(I should mention; I'm adjusting my telling, because most of my items were ilevel 100, so 76 wasn't what I was farming; it's been awhile).

Meanwhile, some Ice Crasher could walk in and leap slam up to it, and 1 shot.

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yamface wrote:

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Deadandlivin wrote:

You're incorrect.
It wasn't the essence mod that made my helmet expensive.

yes, it was. without the essence mod, you dont craft that helmet using those steps. you start by spamming bound fossils for +3 minions right off the bat plus lv20 minion damage. this takes 50 bound fossils on average. then you elevate that mod, and the rest is more or less the same process due to both hypothermia and crit being deterministically crafted. without that essence mod this helmet is cheaper to make by at least an order of magnitude. your helmet was a pretty rare exception. just because that item slot can elevate mods doesnt make it ridiculously pricey as that helmet was.

also im not sure why you think you needed to buy the harvest crafts, but you didnt need to. aug crit/speed were not that rare. the only truly rare aug was aug influence but that had niche uses. most of the time you couldve simply used another aug type or crafted around it by starting the item with the hardest mods first.

Well, obviously if you just randomly decide to remove a modifier from a mirror tier item, of course it's going to be cheaper to craft.
Your argument is that going from a 6 mod perfect item to a 5-mod item is cheaper? That's a stupid argument in my opinion.
Mirror tier items are known to be perfect or close to perfect items.
Just saying that an item is expensive to craft because of one mod and removing that mod to make a inferior 5mod item is laughable.

But for arguments sake, lets assume that we wanted to make the "second" best minion helmet and exclude the Essence mod.

This is how the helm would look:

It simply would replace the 30% more elemental dmg mod from essences with an elevated shaper mod instead.

This helm would be ALOT more expensive to craft than the previous one.

Why did people buy harvest crafts?
What did you think generated more harvest crafts per hour?
To farm them yourself or farm 20 ex/hour and buy them of TFT?

Farming currency and buying the crafts obviously was the fastest way to get the crafts you needed. You could try and farm them yourself but it would be much slower since most of the time, you wouldn't get the crafts you needed.

Take a look at the shield I crafted in Ritual as an example:

I never finished this shield since it has two T2 mods.

I needed T1 cold damage and T1 Cold as Extra Chaos to make it mirror worthy.
You know what the weight of T1 cold is? It's 12.
At the time, the total weight of Cold mods was 4500 (One mod has been removed)
That means I had a 12/4500 chance to hit T1 %cold dmg with Add Remove colds, meaning 0.2% chance. This meant that I on average would need 500 add/remove colds to craft my shield.

How long do you think it would take to selffarm 500 add remove colds in Harvest? How many Atolls and Zana missions do you think that would be, to just perfect 1 mod on an item? Probably more Augments than you found during your entire 3.13 Career.
This is why you don't selffarm harvest crafts, but buy them of TFT instead.

It was the exact same thing with Cold as Extra chaos for T1. That mod seems to have been removed from Shields now but at the time you had to spend on average ~250 Add Remove Chaos to get T1 Cold as Extra Chaos because it was competing with Fire/Lightning/Phys mods with the same effect aswell as some other random chaos mods.

Harvest made it possible to get items that would have simply not existed without harvest craft.

I made that chest in 3.13. Never bothered to max the cold res because that tier was enough and I got tired of hitting T5 or so constantly.



Its not about money its about availability. Go look at any league without old harvest and show me rares at the same power level. It simply does not exist. Their were dozens of similar chests on the market in 3.13. If you could make chest like that now you could ask for any price you want because it would be really unique, one of its kind.

Everything not 100% perfectly crafted was so cheap and easy to get that gear didnt really matter anymore.



The only stuff that actually cost money (compared to the power level it had) was stuff like that amulet that had none craftable mods on it like attributes, minions ect. It sound totaly absurd now but that amulet was worth more in 3.13 than the chest I posted before.

i said the essence mod was the reason why that helmet was so expensive, and i proved it. that backwards and overly expensive crafting process was only a thing because of the essence mod and no other reason. this so called second best helmet is still so much cheaper to craft than the first one. there is no such step in creating this helmet that requires you to start over if you fail a 2% slam like in the first one. in fact if you miss the last elevation on the second helmet the item isnt even bricked, at most it puts you back 1 step

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rekikyo wrote:

I love how you think that Mirror tier gear actually ever exceeds the value of the mirror itself. No Rares EVER sell for more than a Mirror. Ever. A large part of the price is the SERVICE utility. That helm that guy posted was only worth about 225 ex in Ritual. People would use a mirror to acquire it because it was NEVER FOR SALE.

actually every mirror worthy gear is in fact worth more than a mirror. otherwise if its cheaper to craft the item than it is to mirror it, places like tft wont even accept your item in the mirror shop.

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yamface wrote:

i said the essence mod was the reason why that helmet was so expensive, and i proved it. that backwards and overly expensive crafting process was only a thing because of the essence mod and no other reason. this so called second best helmet is still so much cheaper to craft than the first one. there is no such step in creating this helmet that requires you to start over if you fail a 2% slam like in the first one. in fact if you miss the last elevation on the second helmet the item isnt even bricked, at most it puts you back 1 step

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rekikyo wrote:

I love how you think that Mirror tier gear actually ever exceeds the value of the mirror itself. No Rares EVER sell for more than a Mirror. Ever. A large part of the price is the SERVICE utility. That helm that guy posted was only worth about 225 ex in Ritual. People would use a mirror to acquire it because it was NEVER FOR SALE.

actually every mirror worthy gear is in fact worth more than a mirror. otherwise if its cheaper to craft the item than it is to mirror it, places like tft wont even accept your item in the mirror shop.

Perfect gear is worth more than a mirror because of the simple fact that you can make more copies of it and theoreticaly manipulate it further.

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Zerber wrote:

Its not about money its about availability. Go look at any league without old harvest and show me rares at the same power level. It simply does not exist. Their were dozens of similar chests on the market in 3.13. If you could make chest like that now you could ask for any price you want because it would be really unique, one of its kind.

Keep in mind you're using Maven mods to argue the existence of prior gear - before Maven existed. I prefer to look at Harvest Arguments through the lens of what you could do in the actual harvest league, not in Ritual, because GGG just injected a hell of a lot more power in crafting in Ritual, through new items, Maven crafting, etc.

Without Maven, that top would have looked remotely normal, outside the Explodey.

I want you to look at something a friend of mine made this league:

https://www.pathofexile.com/account/view-profile/isidor41/characters

Check his Scourge Necromancer's Top.
Should that exist?

Level 10 Awakened Minion Damage
Level Level 32/33 Carrion Golem
Level 22/23 Impale
Up to Level 8 Awakened Melee Physical Damage
Level 23 Multi/Level 8 Awakened Multi
Level 7/8 Awakened Brutality

Care to take a gander how quickly this does content?

He doesn't even have minion rings on, minion gloves, etc.

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yamface wrote:

i said the essence mod was the reason why that helmet was so expensive, and i proved it. that backwards and overly expensive crafting process was only a thing because of the essence mod and no other reason. this so called second best helmet is still so much cheaper to craft than the first one. there is no such step in creating this helmet that requires you to start over if you fail a 2% slam like in the first one. in fact if you miss the last elevation on the second helmet the item isnt even bricked, at most it puts you back 1 step

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rekikyo wrote:

I love how you think that Mirror tier gear actually ever exceeds the value of the mirror itself. No Rares EVER sell for more than a Mirror. Ever. A large part of the price is the SERVICE utility. That helm that guy posted was only worth about 225 ex in Ritual. People would use a mirror to acquire it because it was NEVER FOR SALE.

actually every mirror worthy gear is in fact worth more than a mirror. otherwise if its cheaper to craft the item than it is to mirror it, places like tft wont even accept your item in the mirror shop.

Please explain how you would craft the second helmet.
You obviously don't understand the crafting process, otherwise you wouldn't have stated such an ignorant thing.

What were you gonna do? Fix prefixes, then reforge keep prefix until you hit 6% elemental dmg to nearby enemies(400 weight and follow it with adding 3 Elevated suffixes?
Good luck ever making that happen.

6% elemental damage to nearby targets has a weight of 400 out of a total weight of 97400.
400/97400 = 0,004 = 0.4% chance to hit on a reforge keep prefix.
This means we would need 250 reforge keep prefix to just hit that suffix ONCE.
That's 250 ex in reforge keep suffixes to get the mod.

Then you would have to elevate it. Elevate is a 50/50, so lets say 500 reforges keep prefix to get 9% increased elemental damage.
Then you'd have to craft add/Remove cold until you get T1 Hypothermia. Elevate that aswell.
And finally, augment crit until you hit T1 spell crit and finally elevate it by removing a influenced prefix mod.

You quickly see how the cost of this helm would require thousands of reforge keep suffixes to ever craft.

Either that, or you do it like with the first helm and fix Suffixes first. (Which would be WAY more expensive since it's 3 elevated suffixes)
Then the process of getting the prefixes is the exact same.

Good luck ever crafting that helm.

The essence mod version is much cheaper to make.

I can't believe that your argument is: "If I remove 1 mod from an item it becomes cheaper to craft". No one was saying that 5 mod items were as expensive to make as perfect 6-mod items.

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Deadandlivin wrote:

I can't believe that your argument is: "If I remove 1 mod from an item it becomes cheaper to craft". No one was saying that 5 mod items were as expensive to make as perfect 6-mod items.

no that is not my argument, this is a strawman you chose to attack because you already know youre wrong. in fact, i went out of my way and quite literally corrected this exact strawman in the very last post i wrote, only for you to swap right back to it immediately

and you can tell you didnt touch crafting when you think reroll prefixes were 1 ex each... like this is about as accurate as guessing a banana from the supermarket is $10. the average seller asked 20c for this craft... lmao

Its time for GGG to bring the golden era crafting from 3.13 back into the game.