Is pre nerf harvest actually balanced for SSF and standard players ?

Every harvest discussion is just:

People who want the game to take about 300 to 900 hours per league to beat content: "Harvest ruined the game, too easy!"

People who want it to take more like 100 to 200: "harvest was the best this game has ever been!"


Then both call each other idiots and move on.

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trixxar wrote:

300 to 900 hours per league

...While others feel the need to use hyperboled numbers to make some sort of point.

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Phrazz wrote:

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trixxar wrote:

300 to 900 hours per league

...While others feel the need to use hyperboled numbers to make some sort of point.

Math

League is 90 days.

If you play 3.5 hours a day, which is not much for some, thats 315 hours.

Think about that, my lower boundary, which you call hyperbole, is only 3.5 hrs a day. Thats not that much, particularly if you have no kids, and a 40 hr a week job.

If you are a streamer, you reasonably play 8 hrs on twitch and probably either research, sell, or do prep some additional time. Or you love gaming. Either way you might do 10 hours a day. Ive known people who do.

Thats 900 hours.



Im pretty casual and when Im playing, I can easily do 2.5 hours a day. Thats 225.

Math is hard?

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Zerber wrote:

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rekikyo wrote:

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Deadandlivin wrote:

Sure, I wasn't a labrunner but my build wasn't slow. Farming Harvest crafts I averaged ~8 ex/hour unless I got extremely lucky. Half the time was spent farming Zana missions while the other half was spent running White Atolls costing 12-15 chaos each in bulk.

Damn..... I just had Atoll set as one of my favorite maps so it dropped more often, and farmed it that way. Also, it seemed like the more I farmed Atoll, the less Harvest procced, so I didn't mind finding it on other maps.

Why did you all farm Atoll Harvest crafts? Beast farming was so much more profitabel, super fast, didnt need any interaction just zooming through maps killing red beasts and if you have some mates everyone got all the beasts for free by just sitting somewhere in the map. The money you could make by selling split and imprint beasts was insane especially before they ninja nerfed it mid league. It was one EX per map more or less guarnteed and every map took 30 sec max.

Beasts only sell 50c. Easier to buy them for personal use or to finish crafted gear with an easy sure thing 6th mod.

Why would you buy the beasts to spam them at that price? Farrul Armour? Not reliable.

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yamface wrote:

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Deadandlivin wrote:

You think Harvest farming was some glorified moneymaking strategy that invalidated every other method of making money in the game.
This is completely false. Farming Harvest for crafts was a good way of makng money for low investment if you had a fast character like a labrunner.

no i dont think that. harvest was not broken because of the money you could make from it. it was broken because it bypassed the need for money in the first place to upgrade your gear AND it was faster than farming a mirror (via other means) to copy someone else's item.. along with the whole thing of low startup investment, easy content, etc etc. and the final product from harvests competes with literal mirror tier items.

the helmet you linked is a rare exception. that essence mod skyrocketed the price to craft that, it is otherwise relatively cheap to craft even if you factor in the elevations. most items dont use an essence mod. ever since harvest was nerfed, countless people tried linking items to convince me that harvest didnt solve the steep crafting costs, but the only 2 types of items ive ever run into were: weapons, specifically physical weapons, and essence mod gear

We've already done the math here. No. It wasn't. Also, it didn't bypass the need for money. If anything, it increased it. If you wanted sure fire mods, TFT was expensive, and often required collateral. If you wanted to farm specific mods, you had to pay forward to get them, and the failure rate on many builds was quite high, with 5-6 competing mods left in the mod pool.

All valuable parts of Harvest was NOT easy content. T4 Bosses literally have a nasty habit of pulling a Drox afk phase where they summoned 300+ endless monsters with random affixes in fast succession that could layer over each other, Soul Eater, Allies gain Frenzy, etc etc. If you didn't have 1.5 mil dps or more, they would outpace you at any ilevel above 76, and get to a point where they denied you even getting close to the boss, who would keep summoning.

Harvest was expensive. The catch was: It was EQUAL OPPORTUNITY. If you both farmed seeds of your own, and sold them, while buying the mods you needed, anyone could take part of the economy (what's a few ex trading between friends?). You're mistaking an opportunistic economy for a cheap one.

What was wrong with Harvest wasn't the economy; It was the fact that GGG added very powerful Influence mods to the game that they have since removed. Explodey Chest with 2 Elevated Maven mods amd T1 Res/Life was a seriously powerful chest and only had 1 mod that competed with explodey (Reflects Phys damage)

What was wrong was that people could fill limitless Horti Craft benches and store them in their Stash to use later.

What was wrong was being able to sell Seeds.

Everything else they did to harvest was to reduce the time players spent in in. They didn't want future leagues to be Farmville.

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trixxar wrote:

Math is hard?

No, math is easy.

Playing 2,5 hours a day for 90 days is 225 hours, correct. But is that magically/automatically the "time it takes for you to beat content"? Would that time change, if Harvest was in the game?

You're moving the post here, and are mixing "time spent" with "time needed".

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Phrazz wrote:

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trixxar wrote:

Math is hard?

No, math is easy.

Playing 2,5 hours a day for 90 days is 225 hours, correct. But is that magically/automatically the "time it takes for you to beat content"? Would that time change, if Harvest was in the game?

You're moving the post here, and are mixing "time spent" with "time needed".

Beat content is a variable, but its tied to why people dont like harvest.

Beating content is what YOU consider completing content.

People are complaining about Harvest in this thread because they think it makes content during a league too easy/too fast.

They say it makes other content not worthwhile, which is the same as saying Harvest is faster. (How could other methods be worse if they got you the result faster?)

Soooo... if they are spending 200, 300, 500, 900 hours on a league, they are clearly continuing to complete content, make new builds, craft, etc.



Im not sure what you are disagreeing with honestly. No one has to do content, you could beat the acts in 4 hours and call it good.

But if you are saying Harvest makes your league 'too fast' then by definition you want it to last X amount of hours.

Are you disagreeing that people play 2.5, 3.5, or in some cases 10 hours a day?

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trixxar wrote:

Are you disagreeing that people play 2.5, 3.5, or in some cases 10 hours a day?

No, I play between 2 and 3 hours a day, and I know certain people play more than 10 hours a day.

But you really made it sound like the latter group wants it to "take 300-900 to beat the content", while they've probably beat all content there is to beat before they reach 100. I still don't see how your 2,5x90=225 or your 3,5x90=315 is relevant to Harvest at all, and how it would change with or without Harvest.

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Phrazz wrote:

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trixxar wrote:

Are you disagreeing that people play 2.5, 3.5, or in some cases 10 hours a day?

No, I play between 2 and 3 hours a day, and I know certain people play more than 10 hours a day.

But you really made it sound like the latter group wants it to "take 300-900 to beat the content", while they've probably beat all content there is to beat before they reach 100. I still don't see how your 2,5x90=225 or your 3,5x90=315 is relevant to Harvest at all, and how it would change with or without Harvest.

Ok, let me know where you disagree.
~By 'last longer' I mean take more hours within a 3 month period, and shorter is the opposite. Leagues last 3 months for nolfers or casuals obviously.

1 - Different people have different goals (you could beat acts in 4 hours and hang it up for the league, thats valid)

2 - The complaints about Harvest are primarily that it makes the game too easy, gives you good items too fast with less time/investment. (Time is the real investment in PoE)

3 - If you are complaining about Harvest and want it nerfed, rather than other methods buffed, you want the league to last longer for whatever individual goals you have for 'content completion'.

4 - Fundamentally, this means anyone complaining about Harvest wants the league to last LONGER, or completing their league goals to last longer. (Or be harder if you prefer, I think the two are close enough in this game to use them to same way.)
4.a You could say "Oh I only dislike harvest because it invalidated other content" but if this is true, then you would be equally happy buffing other crafting methods. However, they are not equally happy with this idea.

5 - This means, people who play a lot and want the league to last longer would not like Harvest. People who do not play a lot like Harvest because it allows achieving their individual goals, or makes the league shorter (less hours per 3 months).



So all these threads arguing about what is right, it all comes down to (1) I want the league to take longer to complete my goals than Harvest would allow or (2) I want it to take shorter to complete my goals than non-Harvest crafting allows.

Its just play time amounts. Neither is wrong.

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rekikyo wrote:

We've already done the math here. No. It wasn't. Also, it didn't bypass the need for money. If anything, it increased it. If you wanted sure fire mods, TFT was expensive, and often required collateral. If you wanted to farm specific mods, you had to pay forward to get them, and the failure rate on many builds was quite high, with 5-6 competing mods left in the mod pool.

yes you did do the math, you said a mirror was 372 exalts and a uber 6L was 150... so what is faster: farming that mirror or just crafting that item yourself? for the record there are 2 problems with this scenario, one is that mirrors were over 600 ex in ritual, so farming for them took that much longer than just crafting the gear yourself, and secondly if the uber 6L was bis and was truly 150ex, that was not mirror worthy anyway

the bosses were not hard. a ilv76 harvest boss has no threat, my characters that wore regular rares with life and resists were facetanking them. in fact none of these harvest monsters hit hard at that low level. all the harvest mob complaints are about super juiced up t16s... not t9s

also this argument keeps getting pulled back to this talking point where apparently you have to keep buying harvest crafts. you dont. the BIGGEST selling point about harvest was that everyone can farm it with next to no investment cost. so putting pricetags on these harvest crafts is a moot talking point