Is pre nerf harvest actually balanced for SSF and standard players ?

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yamface wrote:

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Deadandlivin wrote:

I can't believe that your argument is: "If I remove 1 mod from an item it becomes cheaper to craft". No one was saying that 5 mod items were as expensive to make as perfect 6-mod items.

no that is not my argument, this is a strawman you chose to attack because you already know youre wrong. in fact, i went out of my way and quite literally corrected this exact strawman in the very last post i wrote, only for you to swap right back to it immediately

and you can tell you didnt touch crafting when you think reroll prefixes were 1 ex each... like this is about as accurate as guessing a banana from the supermarket is $10. the average seller asked 20c for this craft... lmao

You were saying the mirror tier item only was hard to make because of an Essence mod.
Then you gave an example how to craft that item without the essence mod.
You said you would first finish all Prefixes with fossils and then finish Hypothermia and the Crit suffix with add removes effectively creating a 5-mod item. Your example on how easy the item would be to craft without the essence mod was an example of a 5-mod item was it not?

I'm the one who's wrong?
You were the one who first said that Harvest invalidated everything in the game, but you were cleraly wrong on that.
You then said that mirrors are useless because everyone should just farm Harvest crafting their own mirror tier gear completely oblivious to the immense crafting cost of Exalted Orbs in the thousands to make the mirror tier items.

I linked my Helm as an example of a mirror tier item that would be impossible for the average player to craft during the duration of a league (Most Mirror tier items are made by teams) and your answer was: "That helm was only hard to craft because it has an Essence modifier. If we try to craft the 5 other mods completely disregarding the essence mod it becomes much cheaper."

I challenged you buy giving an example of the second best helm you could craft without an Essence mod which would be WAY harder to craft.
I even outlined how to craft it, either buy finishing Suffixes or Prefixes first. (Only a moron would do prefixes first)

And you're correct, Reforge keep prefix/suffix wasn't 1 ex. My memory had me wrong, they were much cheaper. They cost 50 chaos in bulk (Ex was 100c in Ritual) so 0.5 ex each. If you weren't buying them in bulk you could get them for 30-40 chaos.

That's besides the point. You said the second helm was easier to craft.
I asked you how you would craft it and you ignored my request.

I didn't touch crafting? My entire Ritual characters gear was selfcrafted except for the helm which I mirror'd.


A bold statement coming from someone who think it would be easier to add an Elevated shaper mod with no Harvest Tags to an item compared to an Essence mod that deterministically can be crafted with essences.

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zzang wrote:

Its time for GGG to bring the golden era crafting from 3.13 back into the game.

The won't.

GGG don't like when crafting is "too" deterministic.
They want us to take risks with our items and brick them.
That's why they decided to design an entire league on the premise of bricking your own items with Scourge.

Unfortunately, most people don't seem to like to destroy their items so that part of the league failed.

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Deadandlivin wrote:

GGG don't like when crafting is "too" deterministic.

The problem with this approach to crafting is all that is does is alienate the average, casual, player. Rich folks, guildies, and TFT discord abusers will never have any trouble crafting what they want, whenever they want, regardless of how deterministic it is. Currency is the only hurdle realistically.

I have no idea what this contempt for the average player GGG has, but it's hurting them.

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Deadandlivin wrote:

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yamface wrote:

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Deadandlivin wrote:

I can't believe that your argument is: "If I remove 1 mod from an item it becomes cheaper to craft". No one was saying that 5 mod items were as expensive to make as perfect 6-mod items.

no that is not my argument, this is a strawman you chose to attack because you already know youre wrong. in fact, i went out of my way and quite literally corrected this exact strawman in the very last post i wrote, only for you to swap right back to it immediately

and you can tell you didnt touch crafting when you think reroll prefixes were 1 ex each... like this is about as accurate as guessing a banana from the supermarket is $10. the average seller asked 20c for this craft... lmao

You were saying the mirror tier item only was hard to make because of an Essence mod.
Then you gave an example how to craft that item without the essence mod.
You said you would first finish all Prefixes with fossils and then finish Hypothermia and the Crit suffix with add removes effectively creating a 5-mod item. Your example on how easy the item would be to craft without the essence mod was an example of a 5-mod item was it not?

I'm the one who's wrong?
You were the one who first said that Harvest invalidated everything in the game, but you were cleraly wrong on that.
You then said that mirrors are useless because everyone should just farm Harvest crafting their own mirror tier gear completely oblivious to the immense crafting cost of Exalted Orbs in the thousands to make the mirror tier items.

I linked my Helm as an example of a mirror tier item that would be impossible for the average player to craft during the duration of a league (Most Mirror tier items are made by teams) and your answer was: "That helm was only hard to craft because it has an Essence modifier. If we try to craft the 5 other mods completely disregarding the essence mod it becomes much cheaper."

I challenged you buy giving an example of the second best helm you could craft without an Essence mod which would be WAY harder to craft.
I even outlined how to craft it, either buy finishing Suffixes or Prefixes first. (Only a moron would do prefixes first)

And you're correct, Reforge keep prefix/suffix wasn't 1 ex. My memory had me wrong, they were much cheaper. They cost 50 chaos in bulk (Ex was 100c in Ritual) so 0.5 ex each. If you weren't buying them in bulk you could get them for 30-40 chaos.

That's besides the point. You said the second helm was easier to craft.
I asked you how you would craft it and you ignored my request.

I didn't touch crafting? My entire Ritual characters gear was selfcrafted except for the helm which I mirror'd.

Spoiler

A bold statement coming from someone who think it would be easier to add an Elevated shaper mod with no Harvest Tags to an item compared to an Essence mod that deterministically can be crafted with essences.

1. yes that item WAS difficult because of the essence mod

2. maybe you havent realized this because youre too worried about me, but the very first step you wrote for your first helm is not even practical. spam horror essences until you hit t1 crit? k that takes 150 essences on average, there arent even that many essences in the entire market let alone repeating this step multiple times due to subsequent mishaps in the next steps. so dont use the word "moron" when youre the one sucking the entire market dry of essences and putting it into negative debt over an incredibly suboptimal crafting method. what that guy probably did was spam horror essences until he got a dead influence suffix and a open suffix, then he r/a crit until he got that t1 crit. this is a 50 ex process PER SUCCESS. your step 1 is cumulatively more expensive than adding my 4th AND 5th mod COMBINED. i will admit my sixth mod is a hard mod to hit but its laughable that your first step is more expensive than 2 of the 3 last steps in my route

3. i ignored your request to craft that item because i literally explained 90% of it already and the last 10% that wasnt explained was self explanatory. what do you want to know beyond the prefixes? reforge keep prefixes? btw this is not a 1/250 chance like you think it is. its only 1/250 if you slam a triple prefix 0 suffix rare but thats not what we're doing now are we. we're rolling random mods. they can come with 4 5 or 6 mods. when they roll 5-6, youre given 2-3 more chances of hitting what you want, and furthermore the 5th and 6th mod has higher chances of hitting this ele damage mod because the these suffixes block their groups from rolling into the other suffix rolls. so this is not a 1/250 lets cut that bullshit out

4. speaking of reforge keep prefixes, its rich that youre bagging on me for using this technique when YOU LITERALLY USE THE SAME THING IN YOUR CRAFTING METHOD.

5. reforge keep X was 20c, you overpaid. 30-40c is what people paid for lucky rolls and that has always been a hilarious scam

6. the entirety of this argument hinged on elevations. guess what, you cant even elevate half the items. so as trivial as half the gear is to make, you decided that the outlier helmet was somehow the average crafting project in what i can only explain to be as dishonest

7. your wand is the only thing that is remotely impressive. i think for the most part i unironically crafted better shit in ssfhc than you did in sc trade.

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Deadandlivin wrote:

Please explain how you would craft the second helmet.
You obviously don't understand the crafting process, otherwise you wouldn't have stated such an ignorant thing.

What were you gonna do? Fix prefixes, then reforge keep prefix until you hit 6% elemental dmg to nearby enemies(400 weight and follow it with adding 3 Elevated suffixes?
Good luck ever making that happen.

6% elemental damage to nearby targets has a weight of 400 out of a total weight of 97400.
400/97400 = 0,004 = 0.4% chance to hit on a reforge keep prefix.
This means we would need 250 reforge keep prefix to just hit that suffix ONCE.
That's 250 ex in reforge keep suffixes to get the mod.

Then you would have to elevate it. Elevate is a 50/50, so lets say 500 reforges keep prefix to get 9% increased elemental damage.
Then you'd have to craft add/Remove cold until you get T1 Hypothermia. Elevate that aswell.
And finally, augment crit until you hit T1 spell crit and finally elevate it by removing a influenced prefix mod.

You quickly see how the cost of this helm would require thousands of reforge keep suffixes to ever craft.

Either that, or you do it like with the first helm and fix Suffixes first. (Which would be WAY more expensive since it's 3 elevated suffixes)
Then the process of getting the prefixes is the exact same.

Good luck ever crafting that helm.

The essence mod version is much cheaper to make.

I can't believe that your argument is: "If I remove 1 mod from an item it becomes cheaper to craft". No one was saying that 5 mod items were as expensive to make as perfect 6-mod items.

I think he's trying to argue the second helm is fossil craftable to some extent.

Bound/Prismatic/Pristine is relatively cheap to craft and eliminates about half the outcomes while boosting chance to get ele.

Still, that could get expensive. Probably 30-40% more expensive than just Bound slamming. It might compete with the cost of essence crafting., but would have a better chance of getting the minion mods.


It'd still have to deal with massively bloated ele resistance mobs, but as long as you only got 2 resists with 1 ele damage nearby, you could have easy removal via harvest (by old system)

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yamface wrote:

k that takes 150 essences on average, there arent even that many essences in the entire market let alone repeating this step multiple times due to subsequent mishaps in the next steps.

3.13 shit out secondary and league specific currency. You were basicaly suffucating in scarabs, del orbs, and essences.

Almost all of this stuff was dirt cheap and available in insane quanitites. I remember running 100% del maps and I almost never ever had to buy scarabs because I did oversustain it by just running the maps and doing rituals.

If you think 150 top tier essences was much in 3.13 than you did never take a look at the market back than. Hey I didnt even bother with essenes and have over 30 of each max tier essence in my essence stash tab from ritual rotting in standard. Most del orbs back than cost under 5c, most scarabs were worthless, essences too.

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Zerber wrote:

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yamface wrote:

k that takes 150 essences on average, there arent even that many essences in the entire market let alone repeating this step multiple times due to subsequent mishaps in the next steps.

3.13 shit out secondary and league specific currency. You were basicaly suffucating in scarabs, del orbs, and essences.

Almost all of this stuff was dirt cheap and available in insane quanitites. I remember running 100% del maps and I almost never ever had to buy scarabs because I did oversustain it by just running the maps and doing rituals.

If you think 150 top tier essences was much in 3.13 than you did never take a look at the market back than. Hey I didnt even bother with essenes and have over 30 of each max tier essence in my essence stash tab from ritual rotting in standard. Most del orbs back than cost under 5c, most scarabs were worthless, essences too.

this isnt a regular top tier essence

essence of horror is only obtainable by corrupting a specific high tier essence and the chance is low. rituals did not grow these essences either even after juicing it with vessels. by that logic we should be flooding with horror essences because rituals are still a thing. they arent. i think if you bother every single person selling them, you might muster up enough for... one success. throwing away 150 horror essences like that just isnt smart

"

Deadandlivin wrote:

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zzang wrote:

Its time for GGG to bring the golden era crafting from 3.13 back into the game.

The won't.

GGG don't like when crafting is "too" deterministic.
They want us to take risks with our items and brick them.
That's why they decided to design an entire league on the premise of bricking your own items with Scourge.

Unfortunately, most people don't seem to like to destroy their items so that part of the league failed.

Yet that's NOT what Scourge did.

Scourge made Uniques which drop in plentiful numbers viable again as core items by giving a tier of mods that you are more likely to get a positive result out of mass production than single item creation. The very fact every Unique Armour has + Maximum Life in its scourge pool negates the primary reason most uniques weren't used. Getting +1 Max all resists on a top that's already corrupted with +1 max and +1 socket is a HUGE advantage that generally doesn't transfer over to crafting.

A corrupted Poet's Pen with 9% Ele Penetration and attack speed, and then scourge for +1 All Lightning Spell Skill Gems, and 5% Penetrate ele would be pure godly, especially with Squire.

For people who need your helmet, there's also the possibility of fixing it to some extent post scourge/corrupt. If you have a helmet with all the right mods, but the wrong tier, there's Divine Teardrop. I wouldn't use it after Maven Orb (which would also block you from getting the Maven Orb) but it could at least get you your level 20s.

Then there's crazy common drops like Triad grip of The Anvil which really don't offer much other than their key function, and only cost 1c.

What if you rolled +2 Aura/+2 Aoe Triad Grips and then Scourged them to give Minions Attack/Cast Speed or Damage? That's why Scourge exists.



Imagine this if it was 20% Fertile Catalyst, with the Scourge mods:
8% Increased Efficiency of Mana Reservation
5% Ele Penetration.

What Price tag would you put on that?

There are downside mods that don't matter, and some downsides can even be incorporated into build (the damage treats an enemy's resist as 14% higher can actually be turned into a good mod)

-----------

ofc, you could always argue these mods are stronger on a rare perfect craft, but whose actually going to try that and succeed enough? If they do, good on them. The biggest impact is Uniques or Split gear.

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yamface wrote:

this isnt a regular top tier essence

essence of horror is only obtainable by corrupting a specific high tier essence and the chance is low. rituals did not grow these essences either even after juicing it with vessels. by that logic we should be flooding with horror essences because rituals are still a thing. they arent. i think if you bother every single person selling them, you might muster up enough for... one success. throwing away 150 horror essences like that just isnt smart

They mostly drop from Harvest and Divination cards. Note enough essence monsters are proccing and the Ritual and Harvest spawn rates are only 10% vs the League on base, and the seed results are far less. (5-8 mods per harvest pod).

You could convert any top tier essence into Horror. I had about 70 Essence of Horror in Heist League. Didn't purchase one.

ie Harvest allowed you to convert all top tier essence into Horror.

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rekikyo wrote:

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yamface wrote:

this isnt a regular top tier essence

essence of horror is only obtainable by corrupting a specific high tier essence and the chance is low. rituals did not grow these essences either even after juicing it with vessels. by that logic we should be flooding with horror essences because rituals are still a thing. they arent. i think if you bother every single person selling them, you might muster up enough for... one success. throwing away 150 horror essences like that just isnt smart

They mostly drop from Harvest and Divination cards. Note enough essence monsters are proccing and the Ritual and Harvest spawn rates are only 10% vs the League on base, and the seed results are far less. (5-8 mods per harvest pod).

You could convert any top tier essence into Horror. I had about 70 Essence of Horror in Heist League. Didn't purchase one.

ie Harvest allowed you to convert all top tier essence into Horror.

i had to log in to check my essences. i leveled to 100 in heist doing only contracts and my lifetime horror essence total is 18. what were you doing that got you 70? the contracts i ran were completely random and i opened most of the big chests that werent armor/weapons

edit: for reference i have 118 deafening essence of contempt, the highest tier of one of the regular essence types

also harvest can only swap between other corruption essences. you cant swap a normal high tier essence into horror