Is pre nerf harvest actually balanced for SSF and standard players ?

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DarthSki44 wrote:

The trade manifesto, and development strategies 5+ years ago never took into account TFT Discord & 3rd party tools that have significantly changed the PoE experience.

This is a fine sentence summary tbh, eventually they will have to adapt and the constant wait til PoE 2 isn't really a suitable strategy for current customers so to speak.

tft has nothing to do with the kind of power prenerf harvest had and i hate when people use tft as the scapegoat of harvest. yes tft created its own problems, but its not like magically getting rid of trade discords will conveniently fix everything

people have to accept the fact that when this was used properly, with or without trade, harvest invalidated everything else about poe. in the ritual league, harvest invalidated the ritual mechanic itself, it invalidated harbinger farming, legions, delirium mirrors, alva temples, metamorphs, blight encounters, you get the idea. anything that slowed down sacred grove hunting was a waste of time

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IHellBoundI wrote:

so remove trade from anything crafted in harvest (corrupted char bound) and problem solved.

Lots of people suffered cause a minority that use third party sites to trade stuff.

To be honest though I hate harvest mechanic (crafting in general is just a rng slot machine I rather have good things dropped and only maybe improved with orbs)

So I'm not that sad they nerfed but I do understand why people is upset cause was the only way u could improve ur char without rng or efficiency speed meta.

Totally agree. I highly dislike the RNG slot machine. I'm not a gambler in any way, in fact I sort of hate it.

But Chris & Co. seem to think everyone likes gambling.

I'd rather have drops that are worth using right away.

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DarthSki44 wrote:

Well they already have some items that are untradeable, but not much. Especially not crafted gear.

But its certainly not without precedent in the genre. It could work. And as far as "popular" GGG already listens to Reddit and the Elites too much.

BoA wouldn't impact anyone playing SSF either. And it wouldn't impact non-Harvest crafted items. Its specifically targeted. I dont think it would be that dramatic.

Also losing millions of dollars and potentially having to make staffing changes because you are insanely stubborn and unwilling to adapt, is business malpractice. If GGG struggles here, it will be because they lacked Vision

The trade manifesto, and development strategies 5+ years ago never took into account TFT Discord & 3rd party tools that have significantly changed the PoE experience.

By all means, I might be overreacting/overestimating/underestimating the community, depending on how you look at it.

I still think it would be a VERY strange move by GGG, though, as they tend to consider the economy pretty holy. And for them to cut a 'big' part of the game off from the economy, would surprise me a lot - but, then again, I think it would fall in line with their rather yoyo-heavy development as of late. They did turn certain Expedition currency BoA (or not tradeable).

It would also surprise me from a "center of balance" perspective, as the center of their balance seems to be temp leagues. To then make an item 'useless' when you're done with the character (again, from a temp league perspective), would be VERY strange - in an "open economy".

I'm playing devils advocate a little bit here, as I personally wouldn't mind it THAT much. But I have to admit, if I was done with a character, wanting to fund a new one, it would suck a little bit to not be able to sell certain items.

As a fairly casual player, I would pay a monthly fee to play in a Ritual (where Harvest was core) league. Not because I even crafted godlike items with it, I didn't.

I just hate the gambling crap that is PoE crafting.

We could argue about whats good for the game but honestly no one would be right or wrong, just different goals and preferences.


At the end of day, I would pay a sub for that game and I bet I am not alone.

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yamface wrote:

tft has nothing to do with the kind of power prenerf harvest had and i hate when people use tft as the scapegoat of harvest. yes tft created its own problems, but its not like magically getting rid of trade discords will conveniently fix everything

people have to accept the fact that when this was used properly, with or without trade, harvest invalidated everything else about poe. in the ritual league, harvest invalidated the ritual mechanic itself, it invalidated harbinger farming, legions, delirium mirrors, alva temples, metamorphs, blight encounters, you get the idea. anything that slowed down sacred grove hunting was a waste of time

Half the things you mentioned are supplementary to Harvest, not Substitution.

Nothing will replace 2X Vaal Atzoal, Catalysts, or Anoints, or Cluster Jewels, or Simulacrum.
Your point would have been stronger if you didn't try to group them in there.

Also, Ritual had important added content that meant to truly min max, you had to play it: 32 new equipment bases, that you needed certain watchstones to actually get good ilevels of.

I never got these done, but you get the idea (mine are ilevel 88, and could have had Eleveated Elusive, +2 Max fire rest, Max Cooldown recovery (83% total Belt + Shoes).

You never would have had these shoes simping harvest.

Furthermore, It's not Harvest that invalidated content; It's trading. When 10 people farm obscure content no one wants to while you harvest, you can just buy their items to compensate for the fact you chose to tunnel.

It's also worth noting: People were crying about determinism. Now that GGG's removed almost all determinism, where are we now? Declining populations and whining about RNG again. You wanted a RNG game. You got it. It doesn't hurt us crafters that much.

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rekikyo wrote:

Nothing will replace 2X Vaal Atzoal, Catalysts, or Anoints, or Cluster Jewels, or Simulacrum.
Your point would have been stronger if you didn't try to group them in there.

yea but what happens when you get what you want from these? a lot of these things you listed are things you obtain to apply once. the rest is a matter of selling them off for money and you use that money to buy upgrades. this is the part that harvest invalidates. the expected return wrt time invested doing blights or whatnot is simply worse than hunting for sacred groves. by orders of magnitudes. its not just better to farm harvests, its better by a longshot

Naw it was honestly pretty mediocre without trading constantly too.

It was balanced to provide minimal support on progression and to provide maximal support where the game didn't need it, making endgame vanity items that didn't help you do any content because you needed to do all the content to use it in the first place.

I played harvest in trade. I never once have uses tft.

I made 4 badass characters and spent more time picking up and looking at ground drops than ever before in the game.

For me harvest and ritual were the best poe ever was or will be.

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yamface wrote:

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rekikyo wrote:

Nothing will replace 2X Vaal Atzoal, Catalysts, or Anoints, or Cluster Jewels, or Simulacrum.
Your point would have been stronger if you didn't try to group them in there.

yea but what happens when you get what you want from these? a lot of these things you listed are things you obtain to apply once. the rest is a matter of selling them off for money and you use that money to buy upgrades. this is the part that harvest invalidates. the expected return wrt time invested doing blights or whatnot is simply worse than hunting for sacred groves. by orders of magnitudes. its not just better to farm harvests, its better by a longshot

That's something I mentioned in the post: The problem is not rooted in harvest, but in the fact that BASE items are tradeable.

Harvest wouldn't need to be throttled if Influenced items were not tradeable. (Keep in mind I'm not saying post Harvest craft items, but the actual pre Harvest items).

Every time a BASE item is added, it creates a problem with resale/ubercrafting that lopsides the trading market, and really isn't driven by Supply/Demand, but rather Utility vs a nonestablished market.

IE .... Bone Helmets; Were worth something when you could easily Elder them or when Elder touched 60 % of all map content. Became worthless when Elder was taken out of common content, and then only natural Drop Elder Influenced Bone Helmets were available.... which could only happen in 5 maps, for at least 4 leagues straight, and only Uber Elder had a good chance of a ilevel 86 helm.

Complete monopolization, and absence of a real market.

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The same existed with the shoes I linked. In all of Ritual, only THIRTEEN ilevel 86 versions of those shoes EVER hit trade! I watched daily 8 times a day, trying to snatch multiples. They were so rare that the base itself climbed to over 10 Ex with no Mods (and would have been higher if people were more actively crafting Ritual bases other than Blizzard crown).

The only thing keeping added Orb currencies in check for price is the fact they aren't permanent, and have a serious sense of impermanence and randomness.

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I don't have an answer for trade vs untradeable. We all know what happened to Diablo IV when it removed its tradehouse.

But it is trade, not content, which results in imbalances.

P.S. Almost none of the things I mentioned only apply once. You theoretically could need over 80 Atzoatl corrupts for gear, over 320 for gems, and you need 80 of the RIGHT Catalysts, and to farm a serious number of oils for correct Annoints.