POE is ACTUALLY dying not the drama queen kind, but the actual kind... From Developer Hubris

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DarthSki44 wrote:

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theres little build enabling things in poe or stuff that changes how you play? are you serious?

you say you are forced to trade and craft, but then say that there is not gear that is needed for a particular build to work in a particular way, why would u need to trade if you didnt need particular gear for your build to work?


poe has about 200+ builds for every build diablo had, and theres way more items that enable those builds. you say its bland to have to craft X gear for your build, and then praise runewords which are find the base, find the couple of orbs and then put them together to get the cookie cutter item you need, level to X level and make the exact same item everyone else has and then use it. its exactly the same thing you just criticised poe for, but its even more bland and boring and planned out.


you say nothing drops, and meanwhile the majority of players are playing self found. drops are comparative to the game, the stuff that drops is good enough to beat the game. the issue is volume vs quality, theres useful gear dropping all the time. but the signal to noise ratio is awful.


theres more interesting things to do in poe than any other arpg that has ever existed, theres more interesting to do in poe than every other arpg that has existed put together, and theres more interesting stuff to find. i dont see where you are getting those ideas at all. can you explain to me what there was to do in diablo 2 that was interesting? in diablo 3? in grim dawn?

theres no real substance to these assertions, you say poe doesnt have enough X, when its clear it has 20x as much X as any other arpg ever made. youve lost perspective.

Regarding to making rare drops good, in the current state that's harder than it might seem.

There is such distance from the average casual to the min maxed group, to drop a good rare now and then for the casual means an incredible fountain of absurd loot for the elite. And there will be that drama.

Somehow builds need to get closer to each other before various changes could take positive effect, without making it boring. Well GL with that.

Also with so much distance between build power - what is possibly used as reference for everyone when it comes to tuning challenges?


:p


I guess just try to have fun and if that's a no go just do something else.

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Snorkle_uk wrote:

theres little build enabling things in poe or stuff that changes how you play?

Correct. I was referring to gear. And yes PoE has very little.

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Snorkle_uk wrote:

you say you are forced to trade and craft, but then say that there is not gear that is needed for a particular build to work in a particular way, why would u need to trade if you didnt need particular gear for your build to work?

I'm not even really sure what you are trying to say tbh. Gear from drops are 99.9% trash. You could spend many days looting gear, that if you decided to craft, you could create superior items in minutes. If you disagree, I cannot take what you are saying seriously. That's fantasy land.

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Snorkle_uk wrote:

poe has about 200+ builds for every build diablo had, and theres way more items that enable those builds.

I mean not really given the limits of the comparison you are making. Many of the PoE skills utilize the same supports depending on what you are trying to do. I don't consider adding a chain support, CoC spells, or having your gloves be a 7 Link for the same skill "build enablers" Also D2 is decades old, it's not a live service game, and it's not a F2P. I mean C'mon.

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Snorkle_uk wrote:

the majority of players are playing self found

Nope, and it's not even close. Softcore trade league is by far the most played.

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Snorkle_uk wrote:

theres more interesting stuff to find

I totally disagee, but I suppose it's subjective. If you find currency and fragments drops interesting, I guess you do you.

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Snorkle_uk wrote:

youve lost perspective.

I'm sorry if PoE is all you have. Lot's of great games out there. If anything my criticism of PoE is a direct result of having perspective from alternative gaming options, which is entirely the point.

GGG developmental direction, and overall PoE experience won't improve if all you do is praise and defend them. You are actually doing the game a disservice by providing blind loyalty. Your unwavering support is admirable, truly, but misguided.

Anyways the data is what it is. The arrow isn't pointing up currently for them, and the last two leagues have been... well less than ideal if you are measuring the "vanity metrics" that are the lifeblood of the game. Personally speaking, I won't be supporting GGG with any money any longer, which we have learned is the only way to really send them any sort of message. Messing with their "piles of money" seems to be the best way to get to them.

I will still continue to play when/if I have time with work and juggling other games I'm more interested in. It's not difficult to keep up with what GGG is doing. I do think the next two leagues, including their larger "expansion" will be critical. I have my doubts, and while I don't take pleasure in saying "I told you so" (well maybe a little), lets see what happens.

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Snorkle_uk wrote:

most of the top players in the game have been playing ssf for years, mostly in hardcore, and theyve been beating sirus, maven etc there. what you are saying here is factually wrong, and you know its wrong so im a little confused as to why you are even putting it out there.

As I've said before, SSF is only for people with exorbitant amounts of time to invest, or just being really lucky. All the skill and knowledge in the world would not help you if you had neither of these.

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the game is only actually challenging in the way one would expect a game to be in ssf mode. ggg has stated that the vast majority of players do not trade, only a minority of players trade for items.

heres a quote from the dev manifesto on trading

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Easy trade would make the disparity between different players too great

And here's another quote from the trade manifesto. It's in big, bolded letters in its very own line close to the top.

"Items Matter. Trade is Important."

And if these aren't even enough to convince you, then here's Mathil's take, the same Mathil the devs will meme about in the so-called "Mathil-effect". https://imgur.com/a/sW2XYs3

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Both of the above points are even worse when you consider that the level of engagement with trade varies substantially from player to player. Most players who play Path of Exile never trade. Out of the players who do trade, most only complete a few trades in a league.

When you say most players, do you mean to include the players that try and quit 1 hour in? Or the players that stay for longer than 2 weeks? I guarantee the people that stay longer, most of them trade because that's the only way they get reasonable progression to remain in game.

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so no, its not balanced around trade, its not expected that you trade, its not required, the majority of the player base plays ssf and the game is balanced to give them the level of challenge you would expect from a computer game.

Reposting the same clip of mathil. https://imgur.com/a/sW2XYs3

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Zerber wrote:

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Draegnarrr wrote:

Love the optimisation on your tree but I think OP's point is you've spent more than I have on every league i've played in... which is alot to do the same damage I did in Ritual for 2ex.

Now its perfectly reasonable to take the view that its exactly what they were trying to change, but its a huge difference to many players to go from the ease of access they had (knowledge based though it was) to version we have now.

I agree with the OP but only half way, I really like the defensive buffs we got this league and they've enhanced my enjoyment considerably but offenses still feel like absolute shit for most builds. They needed to make bigger adjustments to the overall game when they crushed dps as well as closing gaps in outperforming skills.

I think the current problem is that its not a smooth curve going from easy white maps to juiced red t16 maps. The problem starts around high yellow maps where it gets a lot more expensive very fast to keep up with content. Imo it needs to be smooth so you are not forced to suddenly buy 5ex+ gear when 10 min ago a 10c piece was enough.

The other thing that should be brought back are scarabs for the masses. In 3.13 scarabs were super cheap and it was super fun because more content in maps is usually more fun. It also makes easy farming strats for newbies possible.

I generally agree with this sentiment.

Adding 150% damage to low tier maps didn't do much to strangle players, but it definitely creates a world of extremes at about Tier 13, where even an organic 75/75% Block build (Without Glancing Blows) with perma flasks can sometimes feel like you're about to die, or actually do die, with 6.5 K EHP.

I can 3 sec phase 75 Izaro with my Tempest shield build (I know that's weak vs end game farm builds, but this is Tempest shield we're talking about), face tank a t12 Omnifear, and do most T15/16 bosses, and all Conquerors (albeit painstaking with Tempest shield as a damage),

Yet..... the mods and damage ramp on 13+ Starts making me yo-yo, even though I have 78/75% block on offerings and 60/75 without. Some mobs and bosses don't give a F about Block, and ofc there's still that 25% to get hit. Litanus feels horrible to play against if you're not instant killing him on any melee or close range build. Asha is outright insane if you don't have a minion army or 90% Fire res.

Malachai variants have always been annoying at high tiers and now that he's 150% more damage, it's basically a you MUST dodge everything encounter unless you insta kill/phase.

Then there's Stagnation boss's 1 hit Meteor.

Most squishy builds don't see the variance in the outcomes with these bosses because they focus on dodging altogether (or dying) or creating proxy builds that don't put them in danger (TR for example). I REALLY see it since my entire deal is punishing bosses/mobs that hit me a lot. They just know they die (even on earlier maps). I know that I am taking an effective 10-14k damage, because I usually survive 3-4 hits subsequent before being at risk.

Yet.... ofc.... after 30+ grinds of lab with 3 Enchants per run, I STILL haven't got a single enchant my build has in it. (Even Steelskin of Frost Shield; looking for Tempest Shield or Herald of Thunder). Redundancy is fun.

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Snorkle_uk wrote:

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Easy trade would make the disparity between different players too great

Both of the above points are even worse when you consider that the level of engagement with trade varies substantially from player to player. Most players who play Path of Exile never trade. Out of the players who do trade, most only complete a few trades in a league.

The major problems with this assumption:

GGG has also stated that 92% of all players quit before finishing the Acts.

The reason people don't trade is because they opt of of the game before it's even lucrative do so.

They maybe buy a Tabula Rasa, and a couple other 1c uniques, and then quit.

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Aynix wrote:

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Networm13 wrote:

If the game is doing well why does GGG need to hold events giving freebies to lure people back after just 4 weeks into the new league?

Because league is bad and people only care what league has to offer, they dont care about core game.

I'm playing more than I even played during Harvest. That's saying a lot. I play 3 other games and haven't been playing them.

I am going to add my version of fixing things, as you level you can "adjust the drops" its still random but you can control the weight of certain drops. Es char that uses minions? Great, tilt the loot seed into those categories. You can still craft. Just make it a little more favorable. Right now crafting IS poe because the odds of finding a perfect item for yourself is basically zero.

Let's make a quick comparison of why I'm playing D2R instead of PoE;

Items; Arguably the most important part of an arpg.
D2R: Every tier, from white to blue to yellow to unique to set, can be BiS and expensive and sought after.
PoE: White, Blue, Rare and Unique are almost completely garbage quite literally 99% of the time. PoE has waded into D3 levels of 'every drop only exists to be DE'd into crafting mats'.

Multiplayer;
D2R: Fun. Meaningful. Feels great to play with friends.
PoE: Absolute fucking garbage. Not only do you fly through every map and monster like you're post-training Goku one punching entire screens, GGG quite literally introduced 'linked' spells to try and fuckin TETHER you to other players to pretend co-op can work. Spoiler; it doesn't.

Difficulty;
D2R: There's normal, nightmare and hell. Hell is where it's at. Every single act has areas that are the highest level in the game so you can farm them. The entire act has dangerous monsters to watch out for, and if you're playing SSF, or you're bankrupt from RMT'ing, hell difficulty is dangerous and fun to play in. There's set monster health and damage, and you try to min-max your character for your goals. Whether that's for hell rushing, or MF'ing act bosses, or key farming, or lvl85 farming, or cows, or UBERS ect, you've got a set goal and you build your character around it.

PoE: Campaign is COMPLETELY meaningless. GGG spent YEARS on ten fuckin' acts that everyone and their mother wishes they could forever skip. And you know what? GGG has spent YEARS more on PoE 2 and it's entire 'new' campaign, which everyone will immediately complain and wish they could skip.

Then you've got Map Tiers one through Sixteen. NO ONE wants to play on anything UNDER 16, so just like Diablo 3, PoE has the vast majority of 'difficulties' as undesirable places no player wants to spend any time.

PvP;
D2R: VERY fun pvp, even for those who don't usually PvP. Entire communities built around D2's pvp. Endless lists of min-maxing specifically for getting those ears.

PoE; fucking EL OH EL.

Build diversity;

D2R; Only a handful of builds per class, a lot requiring staple items to feel good. Skill trees kind of build themselves, because synergies.

PoE; The entire tree is a farce. It's quite literally either 'take this damage' or 'take this HP upgrade', and it's packaged as some sort of pseudo-deep diversity. Distill PoE's tree, and you'll find your options are HP, or Damage, or maybe something niche like AoE. Then you look at support gems. WOW guys, maybe I take the highest 'more' damage gem, and sometimes use the one that gives me more area? Fucking FIVE HEAD PLAYES amiright.

In the end, PoE doesn't have super deep build diversity. No, taking 'dex' instead of %increased damage' doesn't make your build new or diverse or unique. Neither does D2R. You take the skill you want to use, invest in the synergies, then get some gear that helps that skill. The difference? D2R never pretends to be some sort of genius think-tank for builds. PoE does, and it's funny; Holy shit, you chose a skill, and made it do IGNITE damage? WHOA!. yea.

Combat;

D2R; Unless you're BiS geared, you're not one shotting the screen. Different mobs have to be considered, and you change your playstyle accordingly. Things hit you , they hurt. You hit things, hopefully it hurts them.

PoE; If you can't one hit the entire screen, you are quite literally from a PoE dev's perspective 'doing it wrong'. They've taken away all your power, and buffed the monsters to one hit you through all your defensive layers.



Listen, in the end you'll have shills for both. I've got more time in PoE then I did in D1 and D2 (almost 5k hours). I also have uncounted hours in D3, from closed beta to a couple seasons in after RoS. D2R is literally better in every ARPG category.


Spending your time mindlessly farming while you watch some videos;

D2R; FUCK yea.

PoE; El OH EL.

Regarding the drop vs. crafting issue:

I prefer drops to crafting. Determistic(y) crafting items from the ground up that can be BiS seems to be against what an aRPG is about (although, as Phrazz noted, aRPGs may have evolved into this, so that it is only a problem for people that still more or less play by the Diablo ruleset).

However, I think that in a game with items as complex as PoE there is no real other way. There are just too many mods and base items to actually have a real chance at getting better items to drop after a certain time.
So it feels like crafting is needed.

I mean, in Diablo 1, which I still prefer over any other Diablo, there were normal, magic and unique items.
There was a manageable mod pool and no crafting - because sooner or later you would find that King's Axe of Haste on a good base. Or one of the few really good unique items (I'm not sure, but I think in Diablo 1 there were no no-brainer unqiues, because all of them had some downside, much like we had in PoE for some time).

In Diablo 2 there was a kind of crafting, but it was more like using an Essence. You'd get a rare item with some guaranteed mods.
And there was one "Orb of Alchemy" per difficulty in Act I via a Charsi's quest.
But still the mod pool was manageable and you could find great gear or make it yourself in LoD with runes - which I would not call crafting. It's rather a kind of divination card.
And there was the upgrade recipe - this was really a great thing. A unique with good mods but on a normal base? You could upgrade it (was quite expensive IIRC) to an adequate base and use it in Hell difficulty (with some exceptions).

In PoE, however, the mod pool is so vast (and doesn't get thinned out, so that you can still roll low tier mods on highlevel bases) that without crafting it's really difficult to get really good items. So we ended up with quite a convoluted semi-deterministicoid crafting system and anyone not interested in learning how to (ab)use it feels a bit left out with drops.

IMO.