POE is ACTUALLY dying not the drama queen kind, but the actual kind... From Developer Hubris

"

Draegnarrr wrote:

Love the optimisation on your tree but I think OP's point is you've spent more than I have on every league i've played in... which is alot to do the same damage I did in Ritual for 2ex.

Now its perfectly reasonable to take the view that its exactly what they were trying to change, but its a huge difference to many players to go from the ease of access they had (knowledge based though it was) to version we have now.

I agree with the OP but only half way, I really like the defensive buffs we got this league and they've enhanced my enjoyment considerably but offenses still feel like absolute shit for most builds. They needed to make bigger adjustments to the overall game when they crushed dps as well as closing gaps in outperforming skills.

I think the current problem is that its not a smooth curve going from easy white maps to juiced red t16 maps. The problem starts around high yellow maps where it gets a lot more expensive very fast to keep up with content. Imo it needs to be smooth so you are not forced to suddenly buy 5ex+ gear when 10 min ago a 10c piece was enough.

The other thing that should be brought back are scarabs for the masses. In 3.13 scarabs were super cheap and it was super fun because more content in maps is usually more fun. It also makes easy farming strats for newbies possible.

"

Zerber wrote:

I think the current problem is that its not a smooth curve going from easy white maps to juiced red t16 maps. The problem starts around high yellow maps where it gets a lot more expensive very fast to keep up with content. Imo it needs to be smooth so you are not forced to suddenly buy 5ex+ gear when 10 min ago a 10c piece was enough.

Isn't an endgame supposed to challenge you more and more the higher you climb? Both your skill, your knowledge in terms of gearing and your knowledge in terms of building your character? If everything was being solved "as you go", I think the game would be boring. I'm doing T16, and just pushed myself through 22 waves in a sim. I haven't bought a single item worth "5ex+". Do I have items worth more than 5ex? Sure I do, but I haven't bought them.

Did I encounter dry patches? Sure. Did I encounter moments where I had to farm a bit extra for my gear? Sure. Did I encounter situations where I had to alter my build a little bit? Of course. Did I encounter moments where I wasn't ready to no-brain the next tier of content? Yes. For me, that's the fun part. If the game was just "play, and you will eventually do everything without problems, hurdles or challenges", I wouldn't be playing. We have A LOT of other games in the different corner of the ARPG genre for that, like Skyrim, The Witcher and games like that.

I might be misunderstanding what you actually mean by "smooth" here, and I apologize if I do.

"

Tsokushin wrote:

Now, why is it necessary to get a fast clear speed build to get currency? Because you cannot feasibly upgrade your own character outside of trading for it. There's no SSF support for this game, the entire condition of the game is tailored, balanced, and is expectant on you to trade for upgrades.

most of the top players in the game have been playing ssf for years, mostly in hardcore, and theyve been beating sirus, maven etc there. what you are saying here is factually wrong, and you know its wrong so im a little confused as to why you are even putting it out there.

the game is only actually challenging in the way one would expect a game to be in ssf mode. ggg has stated that the vast majority of players do not trade, only a minority of players trade for items.

heres a quote from the dev manifesto on trading

"

Easy trade would make the disparity between different players too great

Both of the above points are even worse when you consider that the level of engagement with trade varies substantially from player to player. Most players who play Path of Exile never trade. Out of the players who do trade, most only complete a few trades in a league.

so no, its not balanced around trade, its not expected that you trade, its not required, the majority of the player base plays ssf and the game is balanced to give them the level of challenge you would expect from a computer game.

I am going to toss in my 2c here, I have played since open beta. And honestly....I play an arpg to FIND cool items. NOT to craft them using some deterministic formula that I need to spend 100 hours learning the ins and outs of how to make my items stronger. I just don't find "crafting" fun. I don't like having to use craft of exile to try to make items ( and lets face it that's only a stopgap ). I go to look for an item in trade and there are literally hundreds HUNDREDS of mods for every single item, probably thousands overall.

I just cant keep up. And so PoE has to go. I enjoy the hell out of the game, I just am so lost trying to play it. Its become an overbloated mess. And because of the convoluted crafting, that's why so many feel weak, die to one shots etc. GGG balances around a player who crafts his items and has the stats to match, and simply put the vast majority of players don't even UNDERSTAND the crafting systems, let alone USE it.

This game is a crafting simulator, not an arpg.

"

roachmanley wrote:

I am going to toss in my 2c here, I have played since open beta. And honestly....I play an arpg to FIND cool items. NOT to craft them using some deterministic formula that I need to spend 100 hours learning the ins and outs of how to make my items stronger. I just don't find "crafting" fun. I don't like having to use craft of exile to try to make items ( and lets face it that's only a stopgap ). I go to look for an item in trade and there are literally hundreds HUNDREDS of mods for every single item, probably thousands overall.

I just cant keep up. And so PoE has to go. I enjoy the hell out of the game, I just am so lost trying to play it. Its become an overbloated mess. And because of the convoluted crafting, that's why so many feel weak, die to one shots etc. GGG balances around a player who crafts his items and has the stats to match, and simply put the vast majority of players don't even UNDERSTAND the crafting systems, let alone USE it.

This game is a crafting simulator, not an arpg.

I do actually agree with you when it comes to dropped items versus crafting in PoE. However... That is purely subjective of us, and I struggle to see how it makes PoE any less of an "ARPG", just because it focuses a lot on crafting. Your last sentence is like saying "Diablo 2 is an item dropping simulator, not an ARPG", which makes very little sense in my head.

ANYHOW, if it was up to me, the power of crafting would be reduced and the quality of dropped items would be increased. But luckily for the PoE player base, I'm not in charge, because A LOT of players are playing PoE because of the in-depth crafting system.

"

Phrazz wrote:

"

roachmanley wrote:

I am going to toss in my 2c here, I have played since open beta. And honestly....I play an arpg to FIND cool items. NOT to craft them using some deterministic formula that I need to spend 100 hours learning the ins and outs of how to make my items stronger. I just don't find "crafting" fun. I don't like having to use craft of exile to try to make items ( and lets face it that's only a stopgap ). I go to look for an item in trade and there are literally hundreds HUNDREDS of mods for every single item, probably thousands overall.

I just cant keep up. And so PoE has to go. I enjoy the hell out of the game, I just am so lost trying to play it. Its become an overbloated mess. And because of the convoluted crafting, that's why so many feel weak, die to one shots etc. GGG balances around a player who crafts his items and has the stats to match, and simply put the vast majority of players don't even UNDERSTAND the crafting systems, let alone USE it.

This game is a crafting simulator, not an arpg.

I do actually agree with you when it comes to dropped items versus crafting in PoE. However... That is purely subjective of us, and I struggle to see how it makes PoE any less of an "ARPG", just because it focuses a lot on crafting. Your last sentence is like saying "Diablo 2 is an item dropping simulator, not an ARPG", which makes very little sense in my head.

ANYHOW, if it was up to me, the power of crafting would be reduced and the quality of dropped items would be increased. But luckily for the PoE player base, I'm not in charge, because A LOT of players are playing PoE because of the in-depth crafting system.

Diablo 2 isn't an 'item dropping simulation' because that is sort of the core of the genre. It is the real and original purpose of the thing. Might as well say that a bicycle is a two wheeled mobility device emulator. No. It's just what it is.

And item dropping is what the Diablo type of game has always been about.

Item crafting came later, and until PoE was used fairly sparingly because ARPG devs typically know what I just said: people expect one thing from an ARPG over all else, and that is the basic idea of killing lots of shit and taking their stuff, hoping to find top tier gear upgrades. Sure, d2 had a few crafted items but PoE is on a whole other level when it comes to crafted power.

And you'd think I'd be down with that, considering probably my biggest contribution to the game for years was a crafted item. But it was always a gimmick item. There if you want to stuff about with it. Crafting in an ARPG should be ancillary. Always.

Because once it's not you're in a different genre. Different motivations. Different enemy design. Most importantly different itemisation.

And there is nothing wrong with that. My very first post as a PoE supporter praised the currency system as a set of crafting/item rerolling tools. But the game never fully embraced that either, not outside of truly revolutionary experiments like Descent which removed trade and very briefly allowed us to use currency guilt free for its actual purpose. So even in this simple case PoE wavered and hesitated.

At the same time, it has gone full ham on the *complexity* of item modification and creation, which pulls it even further away from the basic ARPG experience. GGG needed the game design equivalent of an editor long ago and now you have the game equivalent of a sprawling series that is magnificent if you've been into it for a while but is utterly impenetrable otherwise. Those who are into it cannot understand why those who aren't also into it...aren't. And those who aren't think those who are are rabid fans beyond all reason.

Simplified but I'd say the divide isn't far off that.

And the irony is PoE is a f2p which typically go way the fuck out of their way to lure new players. Can you imagine the quiet pride swelling in GGG's collective heart that they have defied probably the strongest f2p cliche ever? And they started to do it before anyone else, before f2p was even on the table as a respectable business model.

With an ARPG.

So in a way it shouldn't be surprising that PoE has gone way beyond what we expect an ARPG to be. They're all bicycles and PoE is some weird juggernaut with dozens of axles, a Rube Goldberg cutaway profile and a treadmill rather than pedals. Awesome...but kinda pointless when all most people want is to jump on the bike and go for a ride.

To bring it full circle, a thing doing what it's built to do, delivering an authentic experience, is not a simulator. It is the actual thing. And a thing doing stuff outside its traditional purpose in an abstract way that evokes a feeling of doing the original but never quite in a fully believable way...thats a simulator.

So you can call PoE a trading simulator or a crafting simulator because neither are core to the basic feeling of playing an ARPG, and it more than dabbles with both fairly clumsily. But you can't call Diablo an item dropping simulator since that is what it actually is. There is no simulated experience there.

The core argument is really whether or not what PoE simulates so intensely overshadows what it was meant to be...with the follow up being...does that matter?

"

Foreverhappychan wrote:

does that matter?

Not really. I've written a long essey here, but I've deleted it. I'll cut it down to this:

"ARPG" existed (sparely) as a genre before Diablo. And I think it's sad when people are using Diablo as a ruleset for what belongs in an ARPG 25 years after the first diablo game. With that atitude, nothing evolves. And if other games are not allowed to be different, why aren't everyone playing the original? Maybe they are, what the hell do I know.

Now I'm going to play a shooter, and get irritated by every single mechanic that makes it different from Wolfenstein 3D. Like jumping :D

diablo had runewords, which dominated 'endgame' gear (if we pretend for a moment diablo had endgame). runewords are basically like crafting but shit.

path of exile has a big problem with item drops for sure, too many drop, theyre all shit, a lot of endgame vets craft too much of their gear. they want to change it but its hard because the player base has tendency to go full baby rage when they fiddle with stuff, esp when it involves taking the 200 rares that drop per second in the game right now and turning it down to 2 under the promise they will be better rares.

itll just be omg the chris vision for hardmode is in the game we get no loot chris thinks no loot is fun because he hates people who arnt streamers and harms small animals. ggg nerfed item drops because forced to rmt and trade and only streamers get drops now game shit. and then 20,000 players leave.

this is the sort of blind baby with a handgun in the room bullshit theyre trying to deal with, large sudden movements are off the cards, theyre like paul trying to avoid the jihad, threading the needle through the multiverse of reddit ragebots.

I mean this is a bit reductive no?

What does hating on Diablo, which by all accounts is the father of all arpgs, accomplish generally speaking? Does it make you, or anyone else feel better about it, or whatever Diablo inspired game you like? Quite frankly it's not worth the energy. (causal vs elite toxicity aside when comparing them)

The looting concept, across a number of genres, not just arpg's, is very popular. The issue is that PoE is getting farther and farther away from the core concept that makes a looting game fun. NOTHING is dropping anymore that is interesting. It's all currency, or currency adjacent items. It's horrifically boring. (see Tower streams right now. FML idk how people do it)

You simply don't find anything of value or usefulness gear-wise anymore. Which forces you to either buy it from someone else, or craft it. And with all the planning tools, it becomes so very bland. Essentially level to "x", put on gear you purchased / crafted for "x" level. The progression is totally fucked imo.

With regards to Diablo Runewords, they were great because many of them were build enabling, or changed how you played the entire character. There is very little of this in PoE. Again, I've said it many times, PoE would be much better served imo, if they focused on cool, build enabling or modifying unique items, and delved deeper into ascendency and specialization.

Finally, GGG taking their cues and direction seemingly from Redditors, and Streamers that have ulterior motives is just disastrous from a design point of view. Most of PoE core playerbase dont' come to these forums, or go to Reddit. The game is changing too much (some change is good, what we have is insane), and there isn't anything interesting to do, or even find, for many average players. They come back when they hear something is new, and leave quickly when they realize "new" just means bloated shifting of PoE's core problems. It's why the numbers fall off so dramatically. The core PoE experience is nothing short of awful.

"

Phrazz wrote:

"

roachmanley wrote:

I am going to toss in my 2c here, I have played since open beta. And honestly....I play an arpg to FIND cool items. NOT to craft them using some deterministic formula that I need to spend 100 hours learning the ins and outs of how to make my items stronger. I just don't find "crafting" fun. I don't like having to use craft of exile to try to make items ( and lets face it that's only a stopgap ). I go to look for an item in trade and there are literally hundreds HUNDREDS of mods for every single item, probably thousands overall.

I just cant keep up. And so PoE has to go. I enjoy the hell out of the game, I just am so lost trying to play it. Its become an overbloated mess. And because of the convoluted crafting, that's why so many feel weak, die to one shots etc. GGG balances around a player who crafts his items and has the stats to match, and simply put the vast majority of players don't even UNDERSTAND the crafting systems, let alone USE it.

This game is a crafting simulator, not an arpg.

I do actually agree with you when it comes to dropped items versus crafting in PoE. However... That is purely subjective of us, and I struggle to see how it makes PoE any less of an "ARPG", just because it focuses a lot on crafting. Your last sentence is like saying "Diablo 2 is an item dropping simulator, not an ARPG", which makes very little sense in my head.

ANYHOW, if it was up to me, the power of crafting would be reduced and the quality of dropped items would be increased. But luckily for the PoE player base, I'm not in charge, because A LOT of players are playing PoE because of the in-depth crafting system.

but diablo is more ancient than poe. The grandparents of modern arpg are dropping simulators or reliant on good drops. It's a classic model to loot good equipment/gears. Poe needs crafting/gambling to keep the players occupied while the developers are working for the next league.

crafting/gambling in poe exist so that it can be played forever.