King of Bullshit: 10% death penalty

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satanttin wrote:

lmao level 100 wasn't meant to be reached. also u don't need to be level 100 to do whatever in this game.

Yes but at max level, you can play the game to its fullest enjoyment, without fear of loss. It's a completely different feeling.

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navigator4223 wrote:

So, and now, after this opinion of mine. Again: o-pi-ni-on. Not "fact". I don't claim any facts, I insist that this is my opinion.

Thats my point. Logical conclusions.

And why do you feel entitled to foist your "opinion" as an action on the entire community at large which was your original post? Why should everyone else adopt this "95 is the max level" mentality when it is YOU who don't want to reach beyond 95? That is a totally arbitrary limit you place on yourself, not anyone else. Why should build guide creators assume YOUR issues when they create their OWN content? Sharing your opinion is totally fine, but assuming everyone else shares your opinion and demanding action from the ENTIRE community to suit your opinion is wild. By all means, demand action from the devs, but not from the playerbase...

I like to use music analogies, being a musician myself. Why should I as the composer dumb down my musical ideas because some pianists can't play it? Do you see how silly that sounds? It's MY composition! I can certainly give consideration to others who might be playing it, but I certainly won't impose limits on my own ideas. It's your job as the composer to decide whether or not you want to play the piece or tackle the challenge. No one else's.

Also, you read the poewiki on exp since you quoted it...to get from level 90 to 100 playing solo takes a TOTAL of about 130 hours of play. Without optimizing exp content. Where are these "hundreds of hours" coming from if not from deaths and the 10% penalty? It is a LOT of time sure, but not an insurmountable amount of time. If your goal is to reach beyond 95, it REALLY doesn't take that long...its just not as appealing of a gameplay loop for many players. BUT for some, I would possibly argue for a lot of players, they want their toons maxed level, and those last 5 points are very important to them and their builds. Again, why should YOUR own self-imposed, opinionated limit hold any sway over what others in the community do?

Your feelings of achievement are not the same feelings as anyone else. To try and tell other people what they should "feel" is your main problem. And then to try and control the narrative so that others are "forced" to feel the way you do is ridiculous.

Basically all your posts really boil down to is: I don't like leveling past 95, therefore NO ONE ELSE should like leveling past 95.

sus313 out

No, I never said "no one should (like) level(ing) past 95".

I suggested an approach and a (I admit reactionary, but here I'm actually a bit proud of that) reaction to the, in my opinion, excessive XP downscaling after 95.

(Speaking personally, I understand that this reactionary side of myself is something people in my real life dislike about me, but it's ok for me, it's one of the things that define me. ;-))

My idea is not to forbid anyone anything, please don't understand it like that. The idea is to "sanitize" the approach to the point in the game where it objectively has the potential to become really unfun to level. And I see, after I got a LOT of help from the community to not die much anymore, that a) the 10% XP penalty is not THAT much of an issue with a mindset like this and b) that 95 is a very strong turning point in this game.

Almost every death can be avoided by proper skill tree decisions and gearing. And, of course, sane decision making. Tried it myself. My last build was originally based on tbxie's Arc Elementalist, with a lot of great input from the community here and an idea I had myself after getting an "almost too good to be true" cluster jewel. It was called "it was awful 15 leagues ago and is unplayable now" and yet I made it to 95. :-)

But the one thing that can't be avoided is the steep XP requirement after 95.

And see my "please don't make build guides require more than level 95" as a call for "don't let the excessive XP scaling past 95 gatekeep your build". Something like that.

Your musician analogy is wrong, I think.

What I'm actually suggesting is: "don't let your aim to perform John Cage's 4'33 perfectly, blown up to a 3 hour marathon 'concert', dictate your career".

Because leveling past 95 IS 4'33 prolonged by orders of magnitude.

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jsuslak313 wrote:

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navigator4223 wrote:

So, and now, after this opinion of mine. Again: o-pi-ni-on. Not "fact". I don't claim any facts, I insist that this is my opinion.

Thats my point. Logical conclusions.

And why do you feel entitled to foist your "opinion" as an action on the entire community at large which was your original post?

That was not what he was doing. This is the Feedback and Suggestions forum. The purpose of this forum area is for players to give their Feedback and Suggestions. Navigator4223 does not even have the power to "force" GGG to do as you try to accuse him of doing. He's just giving his feedback and suggestion based on his opinion to GGG.

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Turtledove wrote:

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jsuslak313 wrote:

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navigator4223 wrote:

So, and now, after this opinion of mine. Again: o-pi-ni-on. Not "fact". I don't claim any facts, I insist that this is my opinion.

Thats my point. Logical conclusions.

And why do you feel entitled to foist your "opinion" as an action on the entire community at large which was your original post?

That was not what he was doing. This is the Feedback and Suggestions forum. The purpose of this forum area is for players to give their Feedback and Suggestions. Navigator4223 does not even have the power to "force" GGG to do as you try to accuse him of doing. He's just giving his feedback and suggestion based on his opinion to GGG.

So true!

And part of this opinion is that reaching level 96, 97... 100 is an achievement that is rewarding in itself. :-)

I read the code of conduct for this forum btw, and there it is written (I paraphrase) "you must write your own, genuine opinion". Which is what I do, everything I wrote is really my own, genuine opinion.

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Noble_Seiken wrote:

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satanttin wrote:

lmao level 100 wasn't meant to be reached. also u don't need to be level 100 to do whatever in this game.

Yes but at max level, you can play the game to its fullest enjoyment, without fear of loss. It's a completely different feeling.

That's a personal problem then because a lot of players already do all of that stuff at 95-ish and just don't care about dying anymore. They treat whatever level they currently have as "I'm done with EXP" and they choose it by themselves because they've understood that those last 3-5 skillpoints are just fluff.

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Scarletsword wrote:

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Noble_Seiken wrote:

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satanttin wrote:

lmao level 100 wasn't meant to be reached. also u don't need to be level 100 to do whatever in this game.

Yes but at max level, you can play the game to its fullest enjoyment, without fear of loss. It's a completely different feeling.

That's a personal problem then because a lot of players already do all of that stuff at 95-ish and just don't care about dying anymore. They treat whatever level they currently have as "I'm done with EXP" and they choose it by themselves because they've understood that those last 3-5 skillpoints are just fluff.

This. So much of this. +10000 or so.

Letting go is the important part here. And here I sit, a middle aged man, having to learn to let it go over and over again. :-)

Other games put a 10% exp debt when the character dies. It is better because players never go beyond that 10%. Players are not stoned to loose all carefully gained xp against a boss or a difficult map, encourage to finish it, instead of kicking out, and there is a sense of progression as long you manage to pay that debt before dying again. It changes nothing for pro players, who level up in chayula or similar maps, but it is more fair for the average, casual player.

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B00b wrote:

Other games put a 10% exp debt when the character dies. It is better because players never go beyond that 10%. Players are not stoned to loose all carefully gained xp against a boss or a difficult map, encourage to finish it, instead of kicking out, and there is a sense of progression as long you manage to pay that debt before dying again. It changes nothing for pro players, who level up in chayula or similar maps, but it is more fair for the average, casual player.

Which is true. Losing XP boundlessly means "oh, this is to risky, I'd rather bail" instead of trying again.

From a game theory point of view I don't think that this is the intended effect, indeed.

However, on the other hand, it wouldn't be the first intensely awkward design decision made for this game, so...

Maybe genre specific thing. I guess I should study other ARPGs more in depth to find out the possible reasoning.

However, I find it a bit alarming how much this game is balanced around annoying the player, quite honestly. Awful / appalling UX / QoL (trading), intentionally creating information asymmetry (complete absence of meaningful information in the passive skill tree), far too much RNG in crafting, ultra low drop rates, lots of trash uniques, hm...

Did it all grow into this with every system and change used as a bandaid or was the game like this right from the start?

I especially wonder because many things are done right, at the same time.

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navigator4223 wrote:

However, I find it a bit alarming how much this game is balanced around annoying the player, quite honestly. Awful / appalling UX / QoL (trading), intentionally creating information asymmetry (complete absence of meaningful information in the passive skill tree), far too much RNG in crafting, ultra low drop rates, lots of trash uniques, hm...

Did it all grow into this with every system and change used as a bandaid or was the game like this right from the start?

It was like that from the start, some things are substantially better even than early on. Friction is a very important part of game design its just extremely hard to convince players of this because if you get it wrong they hate it, in many cases if you lack it completely they just quit silently too.

They have to string players on due to their funding model which means making long term objectives and limiting player progression, something we have become shockingly efficient at circumventing tbh at least if you are an advanced player.

Just to bring up everyones favourite comparison game Dark Souls is a game deliberately filled with friction and frustration in order to make success sweet and addictive. The stats are nebulous, environments are offensive and deadly, traps are lethal, bosses teabag you repeatedly, your character handles like a cart horse attached to a wagon of watermelons, you can be invaded by epeen warriors with youtube builds and bad ping etc.

Its also extremely popular with a particular type of player. Again I realise it can be unpopular but thinking that bad qol, clunkiness, obfuscation or awkward restrictions are automatically bad is naive. Some of them are bad, some of them are integral to the spirit of a game.