King of Bullshit: 10% death penalty

there is very little difference between T14 and T16 and ironically you advocated yourself for a system that rewarded playing with the death penalty on.

That is modded maps lmao, the fact that the playerbase now considers rare maps to be the normal version of a map, especially now sustain is so high without it, is one of the biggest problems with arguments about the death penalty.

You won't get mobs doing pinnacle boss damage in 16's short of the league mechanic mobs - nobody can defend those they are overtuned AF everytime anyway. Whites/blues/curated yellows are all very safe if you know which mods to run, which to avoid and which you might have built for.

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Draegnarrr wrote:

there is very little difference between T14 and T16 and ironically you advocated yourself for a system that rewarded playing with the death penalty on.

That is modded maps lmao, the fact that the playerbase now considers rare maps to be the normal version of a map, especially now sustain is so high without it, is one of the biggest problems with arguments about the death penalty.

You won't get mobs doing pinnacle boss damage in 16's short of the league mechanic mobs - nobody can defend those they are overtuned AF everytime anyway. Whites/blues/curated yellows are all very safe if you know which mods to run, which to avoid and which you might have built for.

Everyone wants to do juiced rare corrupted maps with 5+ types of league or expansion content because you won't progress in your loot with only white maps. I am aware that white T16 is not that different from white T14.

Potential rewards for optional death penalty mode (before level 100) could also be a bonus to area's IIQ/IIR. If you die, bonus is removed and you would have to earn back specific amount of exp to regain that bonus. At level 100 bonus is removed permanently, since GGG always wanted to promote regrinding same things from scratch again and again.

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ebrl wrote:

You are not entitled to level 100. Softcore is already treated as a joke by some people, we don't really need to give players who die 600 times and complain that the game is too easy even more power. Hard content should make you think twice about running it and the game is already doing a pretty poor job at that, putting some speed bumps on the way to level 100 is the bare minimum and barely makes a difference these days. If you're dying so often that you can't make progress this is a you problem.

The major question is... WHy do you care about what others do in a game?

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Echothesis wrote:

Everyone wants to do juiced rare corrupted maps with 5+ types of league or expansion content because you won't progress in your loot with only white maps. I am aware that white T16 is not that different from white T14.

then don't focus so much on progressing your loot while simultaneously expecting never to die?

They would complain none stop about your fix as well btw because its caused by a failure of a player to process a lack of something not an actual problem with the systems which actually just are. It will be perceived as a either totally irrelevant if they made the bonus low, or mandatory if they make the bonus high and if its considered mandatory people will blame their lack of loot all league on the fact they died.

I can already see the posts now "I have to run 3 hours of maps to get my IIQ back before I farm"

you are intended to see 100 as a chase objective not some mandatory character requirement, and expecting to hit a chase objective without any kind of gameplay adjustment is just a wasted opportunity on behalf of the developer and naive on behalf of the player.

Like trying to farm mageblood without any discernible strategy.

This is why its silly to think its OK to want 100 while doing juiced T16s with no regard to modifiers, sure you can succeed if you are an excellent player on a good build and you blast with such efficiency that no strat gets you there eventually... but most players aren't anything close to that and should have much more grounded expectations with achievable goals for where they are at.

I realise that sounds lame but it is the kind of game PoE is despite what card gamblers on reddit would have you believe.

I enjoy the game most when I don't care if I die and the loss of exp. I do all the map content, I face uber bosses, dangerous monsters and so on. But before I need to level up at 96 or the character won't be strong enough. And it is painfully beyond frustrating to level up beyond 92 with a slowly grinding white maps and avoiding any dangerous scenarios and giving up many times when some random mob one shot kill you because of some random deadly mod combination.
So, yes I am against the death penalty.

I can suggest what other games do. To acquire a debt of exp when the character dies, but never goes beyond that 10% of debt. So there is no penalty for dying several times. Once you die there is no further punishment and encourages the player to finish the map and difficult content.

I agree somewhat, but I think the 10% XP penalty is not the issue.

It's the damn XP scaling. There are 3 or 4, depending on how you count, mathematical effects at work that basically slow levelling progression to a halt at level 95 which is the one thing that turns rewarding level ups into relieving level ups at this point.

The content is not only seriously underlevelled, but there are additional calculations in place which start to turn the game into a fulltime job at exactly this point. No, a saturday or sunday is to valuable to waste it on getting 70% of the XP for a single skill point plus some ridiculous +life.

But the community can do something about it.

First of all: community could agree that the realistic final level is 95 and limit / adjust build guides accordingly. No more level 96, 97, etc... trees in PoB. Treat 96 and up as practically unobtainable without giving up sanity. It is true that content is 100% available at this point, its mostly the psychological factor of "my build is not complete because the build guide says so". A trap I fell into as well.

Second: communicate it this way. Clearly. The words are: "level cap is 95. It is possible, but with unrealistic effort for 99.7% of real existing people (not no-lifers), to go beyond that, but we suggest you don't even try".

Third: focus communication about the levelling "experience" not on the death penalty but on the scaling as a long term stretch goal

Fourth: actively stop even trying after 95. Just don't care anymore. Treat 95, for your own sanity, as the new level 100. Thats mental health self care. And I have a background in psychology.

Fifth: ignore / blacklist build guides that tell you anything beyond 95 is necessary / important as opposed to "for some faster clearing" or "as a bonus"

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First of all there is only ONE mechanic that effects leveling past 95...and that is the very basic exp penalty mechanic. There is no other considerations or "additional calculations" when it comes to leveling beyond 95. I would love to see what "3 or 4 mathematical effects" and calculations you think exist...

Second, I disagree with every single one of your community points. 99% of all build guides on the forum already do stop at 95 and say that the rest of the points are just icing. The builds that do require higher levels need no adjusting to appease someone else: if someone is following a build guide that "requires" level 96+ then...you need level 96+. No one else is forcing you to follow a build guide that you can't complete. Build guide creators have no reason to cater to the nameless person that might be following their guide, but can't level past 95. Build guide creators kindly share their experience and something they truly enjoyed doing with everyone else. If that required a few extra levels, why should they destroy THEIR build to ease YOUR lack of planning?

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NONE of that has anything remotely to do with the topic of this thread, which is the 10% exp penalty. You even said that...all your comments are totally unrelated to the issue.

Wrong.

3.1 XP penalty in the Wiki.

And I noticed it myself. Rare rolled T16s gave a tangible, relevant XP bar progress at level 94, at level 95 it is down to 1.2-1.4% per map. Some maps even below 1.0%.

And no, my advice was not "to ignore it" but to "reframe" it. Level 95 is the actual cap for any reasonable interpretation of reality.

the 3.1xp penalty is the "normal" exp penalty lol. That is ONE single mechanic that affects exp gain past 95. Exactly what I said.

Of course maps are going to give you variable amounts of exp...every map has a different number of monsters. That's true of every area in the entire game, not restricted to post-95 leveling. The same map is NEVER going to give you the same amount of exp. And of course its going to have a different exp amount pre-95, because the 3.1exp rule takes effect at 96...as you already pointed out from the wiki. ONE mechanic.

If YOU think level 95 is the actual cap, then follow build guides that stop at 95. If someone else is able to level to 100 or WANTS to level to 100 and is following a guide that uses all the points to level 100, then why shouldn't they?

But if YOU are following a guide that goes to 100, but you want to stop at 95, then why should the guide cater to you? Why don't you adjust the guide to suit how far YOU want to go with the build? Why should it be everyone else's responsibility to tone it down for YOU. BY the time you get to level 95, you should at least be able to make some decisions for yourself...

Some builds DO require post95 skillpoints in order to function. They are rare, but they exist. Why shouldn't they? T

It is no one else's fault or responsibility to do the thinking or playing for you.



It is true though that the 10% exp penalty frustrations have a direct connection to the 3.1exp penalty at 96+ because of the exponentially higher time cost, but everything else is just pure nonsense.

Feels like pulling teeth, but I'll try again, from a different angle.

There a multiple goals you can have in this game, which is excellent design. I'll list a few:

1. Get all the goodies from the league pass (did this before I hit level 90)
2. Try out all of the mechanics
3. Get rich and buy all the nice stuff
4. Become a master heister (something that curiously interests me personally a lot)
5. See all the endgame content (big Uber bosses)
6. Get to level 100

And thats my point. I mean, a day has 24 hours and a league has between 90 and 120 days.

With the extreme falloff of XP gain for mapping from level 95 onwards (yes, thats what I think should be focused, if it wasn't for that the 10% XP loss wouldn't be that issue) attaining level 96 in itself is a stretch goal. A stretch goal I AGREE (!!) with as long as it is clear that "there are two level caps: a realistic, reasonably attainable one, which is 95" and "a level cap for people who are willing to put hundreds of extra hours into levelling without having much variety", which is ok as well).

So, and now, after this opinion of mine. Again: o-pi-ni-on. Not "fact". I don't claim any facts, I insist that this is my opinion.

Well, after this opinion of mine I came to a conclusion that is based upon my out of game life experience and education that can work for people who don't pursue the particular goal of getting to levels beyond 95, thereby avoiding the excessive (sorry, but this is the best word I can come up with) XP downscaling after this breakpoint.

My suggestion includes that, for a majority of game use cases, simply ignoring the existence of toon levels beyond 95 is a possible and, in my opinion, reasonable workaround.

Because, and thats what this is about for me, the moment the feeling of "achievement" is replaced by a feeling of "relief" (and thats how I'd feel about hitting 96 as well) is like ringing a bell: "you have done something that didn't really bring you joy".

Since you and I agree that all of the game content is available at level 95 as well, there is no need, to achieve any of the other goals one can possibly have in this game, to level beyond 95. Moreso, actively pursuing the goal of hitting 96 and upwards can, because of the very low XP gain, even be very counterproductive.

Thats my point. Logical conclusions.