Your 2021 PoE end game ladies and gentlemen.

"
porous2 wrote:
If casuals don't care about competitiveness then not being able to do end-game content shouldn't bother them. That is a concern for competitive players only.


Ok, rant incoming: I don't mean to focus all (or pretty much any of it) of this on you, mate, so don't worry.

That's (just) partially wrong, because even if you are a casual you actually want to experience the game content, at least at a slower pace. In PoE, content is gated behind an in-game paywall of fragments, and you drop those enough to experience game content only if you are 'efficient' or you trade for them (which is another way of being efficient). I'm not saying it's binary and all should be open from the start to everybody, but there's a line between 'hey I finally get to fight Chayula after doing other things' and 'hey better just sell this sh*t to efficient players because for its rarity it really doesn't pay the trouble I went through at all'. That just ends up into BS of people selling their game content to others, if a boss run costs exalt and a casual barely drops like 5 exalts per league. Then there are these vacuum cleaners like I_NO complaining their hand is breaking for collecting all the loot, after reaching a level of 'efficiency' no casual ever does, and they are expecting GGG should serve game balance for them. Like, seriously?

It's not like if I am just a casual mario player I'm happy to stay on first level and not unlock any other levels, ever. The so called crafting for a long time has been also reserved for few, who could accumulate hundreds of exalts. That's not realistic way of crafting anything for a casual, especially if you are not efficient also with crafting. You either go look for crafting videos to twink your way, or do some next level statistic analysis with goddamn third-party-clients. If you are to just play the game and try out crafting for funzies on your own, oh boy did you come to a wrong place. You need to google that sh*t up.

Having read all the elitist, toxic sh*t on forum I have even less sympathy for vets, in fact the attitudes shown makes me want to see their experience of the game suffer. When knowledgeable people talk about 'what is best for the game' they usually mean what is best for their lot.

/rant
Last edited by vmt80 on Feb 23, 2021, 9:30:21 AM
"
frostzor27 wrote:
Trade is something that works well on MMOs, but any ARPG that has trading as it major feature is faded to fail.




poe is built around trade and its the most consistently mass played, long surviving arpg in the history of the genre. i dont rly like trade much but the facts dont back up what youre saying at all. poes longevity and ability to grow its player base over so many years is unprecedented in this genre. everything down to your ability to access a zone to play in is tradable in this game, theres no other arpg that has ever come remotely close to how tradable poes content is or poes long term success.





this whole thread is pretty lol tbh, some guy got scammed....



....ok? and?


sure sucks for that guy, i honestly wish it never happened i feel bad for him. but when crafting was exalts and mirrors people got scammed, high level crafters who are still in the game being high level crafters right now have been in massive reddit dramas over scamming people, scamming each other. every time u mirror an item you are handing a mirror to someone, a mirror in standard is worth over 800 exalts and ur handing that to a player in order for them to mirror their item for you. this has been in the game since day 1, its how the community has operated since day 1.

there is nothing new here, at all, people have always had to hand over massive amounts of wealth either on trust or with the other person handing back something of similar value as a guarantee when it comes to getting the top level of rare items. that has always been the way in poe and there have always been cases of people getting scammed, always been communities, always been 3rd party places for those communities to socialise.





storm in a teacup. come on, were big kids, we can have our own communities, make our own rules, use 3rd party aps like dischord, skype, teamspeak, we can police ourselves, or not, take our own risks or not, its fine. we dont need GGG to organise us and take responsibility for us like the teachers running the playgroup, we got this, its fine. ive never traded a harvest craft, dont plan on ever trading one either way, no ones forcing me to and if i did i can ask for a security payment from the other guy.
"
vmt80 wrote:

Having read all the elitist, toxic sh*t on forum I have even less sympathy for vets, in fact the attitudes shown makes me want to see their experience of the game suffer. When knowledgeable people talk about 'what is best for the game' they usually mean what is best for their lot.

/rant


Same goes the other way around too tho.


If I was to rant about what casuals are putting fowards, it reads like this:
I barely play the game, cant be bothered to do research and still demand to experience the entirety of the game.

How is that even supposed to work in this time and knowledge based game?
If this was the games guideline it would have to be dumbed down significantly and anyone who isnt a casual would be done with the game in a few weeks.
This has ruined plenty games already. Why should PoE go down this road? It leads to nowhere.


You dont balance the game around the top oviously (which it isnt) but you also dont balance around the bottom of the barrel to be brutally blunt.
"
Orbaal wrote:

How is that even supposed to work in this time and knowledge based game?
If this was the games guideline it would have to be dumbed down significantly and anyone who isnt a casual would be done with the game in a few weeks.
This has ruined plenty games already. Why should PoE go down this road? It leads to nowhere.


You dont balance the game around the top oviously (which it isnt) but you also dont balance around the bottom of the barrel to be brutally blunt.


Yes, I agree. To me the biggest gripe isn't even the knowledge side of things but that there is zero in game knowledge offered. Quite frankly I rather rant here on forums and read other peoples gripes than study databases outside the game.

For example, Path of Building is a fine and dandy software and all, but all its info should be in the game. It's ridiculous that in-game skill tree has no comparable data of your build. There should be advanced data offered in game on pretty much every aspect, including crafting. Every time I find an item potentially for my character, I just look at it and wonder 'geez, I have no idea whether this ups my dps or not, and I have no way of getting enough in-game data to figure it out. Next.'

Though it feels like GGG already ditched any effort to do that over the years.
Last edited by vmt80 on Feb 23, 2021, 10:07:48 AM
"
Snorkle_uk wrote:

poe is built around trade and its the most consistently mass played, long surviving arpg in the history of the genre. i dont rly like trade much but the facts dont back up what youre saying at all. poes longevity and ability to grow its player base over so many years is unprecedented in this genre. everything down to your ability to access a zone to play in is tradable in this game, theres no other arpg that has ever come remotely close to how tradable poes content is or poes long term success.


I think PoE longevity is because constant new content being added, not because of trade.

Or else no one would play SSF.
"There's no thing like random one-shots in this game. You only die because you take 353,456,237 hits in 0.2 seconds."

"The best items in the game should not be crafted, they should be TRADED." - Cent, GGG
"
frostzor27 wrote:
"
Snorkle_uk wrote:

poe is built around trade and its the most consistently mass played, long surviving arpg in the history of the genre. i dont rly like trade much but the facts dont back up what youre saying at all. poes longevity and ability to grow its player base over so many years is unprecedented in this genre. everything down to your ability to access a zone to play in is tradable in this game, theres no other arpg that has ever come remotely close to how tradable poes content is or poes long term success.


I think PoE longevity is because constant new content being added, not because of trade.

Or else no one would play SSF.



maybe, doesnt change the fact it hasnt failed, and is probably the furthest thing from a failure in the history of the genre tho.
"
vmt80 wrote:

Though it feels like GGG already ditched any effort to do that over the years.


I doubt they ever intended to do anything like that. At least to me this feels like a conscious design decision - whether you (or me for that matter) like it or not.

I think the idea is to keep some things mysterious and nebulous, so it cant be figured out and abused straight away. You have to put in the effort, may it be doing research or testing in the game. Keeps you busy regardless, prolongs the time spent on the game and makes you feel good, if you figure it out and then make this newly acquired knowledge work for you.
Also gives you an edge over everyone who didnt bother to figure it out.


This is a traditional approach of games made in the 90ies and I like it, though I realize its not for everyone.

To sum it up, I think Chris said it best in some Podcast (might have be Baeclast - not sure tho):
"Here is a game, try to beat it"

Thats the spirit of the game. It wont hold your hands, it wont make you feel comfortable or anything like that. Instead it will try its best to kill and punish you.
Adapt, learn, overcome or die - simple as that.
"
porous2 wrote:
If casuals don't care about competitiveness then not being able to do end-game content shouldn't bother them. That is a concern for competitive players only.


By that logic, no content should bother them.

The end-game content is fun, you know? Some of the best boss designs are found in the end-game (not all of them, admittedly).

Besides, it isn't just about content. It is also about items. Not because one can be strong with them, but because some builds only function with certain items / interactions / gear levels.
Remove Horticrafting station storage limit.
"
JunkHeadJoePC wrote:

What's the matter really? Your trade site RMT taking a hit because all of us casuals can have some fun too?


There's more than a little truth to this. When throwing hundreds of RMT exalts at your "gonna post this to reddit" crafted "brick or win" no longer garners you the upvotes you spent all the money trying to get then the next logical move is to demonize the crafting system that lets everyone have some fun.

I'm not going to say that all or even most of the Harvest hate is being generated by these types of players, but I am suspecting that there's PLENTY of crossover between no lifers who are pissed that they are no longer the only ones with "special amazing super items" and the kind of mentality that would actually hang out in TFT and risk getting scammed just so they can edit their item faster than playing the game normally allows.

In the end we're talking about people who want to make the game easier by meta gaming who are also angry that their meta gaming is also: risky and scam prone, and also not much fun.

Well genius, you've chosen to make the game easier by any means possible: maybe you shouldn't be surprised when your own dumb choices MAKE PLAYING LESS FUN.
Quadrupling the number of 0.00001% chance Boss encounters in the game while at the same time quadrupling the number of things you need to juggle (masters, leagues, splinters) is not a net increase in CONTENT; its a NET INCREASE IN CONTENT YOU NEVER GET TO DO
"
Snorkle_uk wrote:
"
frostzor27 wrote:
"
Snorkle_uk wrote:

poe is built around trade and its the most consistently mass played, long surviving arpg in the history of the genre. i dont rly like trade much but the facts dont back up what youre saying at all. poes longevity and ability to grow its player base over so many years is unprecedented in this genre. everything down to your ability to access a zone to play in is tradable in this game, theres no other arpg that has ever come remotely close to how tradable poes content is or poes long term success.


I think PoE longevity is because constant new content being added, not because of trade.

Or else no one would play SSF.



maybe, doesnt change the fact it hasnt failed, and is probably the furthest thing from a failure in the history of the genre tho.


I'd go a step further, POE has grown over time (unlike literally any other game of this type) in spite of trade and not at all because of it. 3 month leagues mitigate the massive fast forward button that is trading gear in a loot driven game. POE is popular because 3 month leagues MITIGATE THE ADVERSE EFFECTS OF TRADE.

Trade is nothing but a fast forward, a short cut that meta games your game into a different type of game (shopping game) that is solved differently than a loot driven game is supposed to be solved:

Loot driven game: kill things pick up items, find cool items and use them as you find them, repeatedly upgrading your gear.

shopping driven game: farm currency fast (filter out all low items), or RMT, buy your best gear, you're done.

POE in trade league is a Shopping driven game, and it has ALL the clearly understandable signs of that: massive fall off of players after a couple weeks, massive RMT presence, massive Reddit threads of "Angry about not being able to trade easier/with less scams" massive 6000 upvote threads of dumb dumbs who can't not sit in TFT and ruin their own fun...

POE has grown DESPITE trade. SSF becoming increasingly popular also points to this.

POE doesn't NEED trade, trade was just ONE WAY to make people feel like the items they dropped were cooler... SSF proves that items can be cooler than Trade WITHOUT NEEDING THE ABILITY TO TRADE THEM. A 1 alch item dropping in SSF can be absolutely exciting.

Tell me items have "more weight" in trade than they do in SSF? I don't think any reasonable person would argue for that point. The entire point of Trade was to make items more "real" and "have more weight"... and yet we can clearly see they actually are far more weighty and impactful in SSF than they are in trade.
Quadrupling the number of 0.00001% chance Boss encounters in the game while at the same time quadrupling the number of things you need to juggle (masters, leagues, splinters) is not a net increase in CONTENT; its a NET INCREASE IN CONTENT YOU NEVER GET TO DO

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