Your 2021 PoE end game ladies and gentlemen.

This kind of mentality ruined Diablo 3. People there hated trading too and the designers in their infinite wisdom decided to abolish it. Well, D3 failed precisely because the people who like to have a choice couldn't stand the "smart" loot system and buggered off. Because finding things, selling them and using the currency to buy others IS ACTUALLY A LOT OF FUN
"
Johny_Snow wrote:
This kind of mentality ruined Diablo 3. People there hated trading too and the designers in their infinite wisdom decided to abolish it. Well, D3 failed precisely because the people who like to have a choice couldn't stand the "smart" loot system and buggered off. Because finding things, selling them and using the currency to buy others IS ACTUALLY A LOT OF FUN


You seem to be confused as to what happened with D3 and timeline it happened in. D3 is currently "ruined" by being a stale game thats too easy, by "item sets" instead of loot variety, by "seasons" where almost nothing is changed, and by drop rates that are too high. But it was actually WORSE OFF once upon a time.

D3 was dying and no one was actually playing the game, poeple just purchased items off the RMAH and the playerbase drained away like every other such game where playing the game was less efficient than playing the AH. Then they removed their auction house and it actually increased in playerbase. Sadly that's where the support for the game pretty much ended in terms of serious content.

D3's main problem today is that they don't do actual content updates, and aren't using a "games as a service" model like POE does so it ofc can't compete with POE, it doesn't generate any excitement or renewed interest.

But their auction house literally killed the game until they removed it.
Quadrupling the number of 0.00001% chance Boss encounters in the game while at the same time quadrupling the number of things you need to juggle (masters, leagues, splinters) is not a net increase in CONTENT; its a NET INCREASE IN CONTENT YOU NEVER GET TO DO
I was going to answer, but @alhazred70 did it for me. I'm gald someone else see things as I see.

In a nut shell: PoE is not successful because of trade, it's successful in spite of trade. It grows, evolves. D3 failed from start because of trading (RMAH) but mostly because easiness and lack of growt/evolve after they removed it.

I'm saying it, the next good ARPG that has constant expansions/evolutions, more QoL and not focused around trade will topple PoE hard.
"There's no thing like random one-shots in this game. You only die because you take 353,456,237 hits in 0.2 seconds."

"The best items in the game should not be crafted, they should be TRADED." - Cent, GGG
"
frostzor27 wrote:

I'm saying it, the next good ARPG that has constant expansions/evolutions, more QoL and not focused around trade will topple PoE hard.


Thought about that for quite a while, years in fact and at this point I seriously doubt this can even happen.
In theory - sure.
In reality - no.

It takes quite a lot of work to create a game. We are talking years here and even a smaller crew of about 50ish devs would cost millions over this period of time.
No matter how talented they are or how good their product is, it will feel shallow and small compared to PoE for a lack of content.
Which is why its going to be hard for them to muster a hardened crowd thats not only constantly playing/advertising the game but also willing to throw money at the devs so they are able to come up with new content.

Going GGGs way of creating a F2P is a serious risk only enthusiats and madman would be willing to take.
The only halfway realistic scenario would be a small crew of devs working on the game in their sparetime, so they dont need money at all and have all the time in the world. And even then it would take some serious whales/sugardaddies early on to keep them alive financially.

No established company is going to do that and the only financially viable options would be:
- subscription model
- selling DLCs
- classic P2W features

Besides the latter one, none of those will work for a small and content lacking game. And the latter one will ruin the game right from the start.
"
Snorkle_uk wrote:
"
frostzor27 wrote:
Trade is something that works well on MMOs, but any ARPG that has trading as it major feature is faded to fail.




poe is built around trade and its the most consistently mass played, long surviving arpg in the history of the genre. i dont rly like trade much but the facts dont back up what youre saying at all. poes longevity and ability to grow its player base over so many years is unprecedented in this genre. everything down to your ability to access a zone to play in is tradable in this game, theres no other arpg that has ever come remotely close to how tradable poes content is or poes long term success.

this whole thread is pretty lol tbh, some guy got scammed....

....ok? and?

sure sucks for that guy, i honestly wish it never happened i feel bad for him. but when crafting was exalts and mirrors people got scammed, high level crafters who are still in the game being high level crafters right now have been in massive reddit dramas over scamming people, scamming each other. every time u mirror an item you are handing a mirror to someone, a mirror in standard is worth over 800 exalts and ur handing that to a player in order for them to mirror their item for you. this has been in the game since day 1, its how the community has operated since day 1.

there is nothing new here, at all, people have always had to hand over massive amounts of wealth either on trust or with the other person handing back something of similar value as a guarantee when it comes to getting the top level of rare items. that has always been the way in poe and there have always been cases of people getting scammed, always been communities, always been 3rd party places for those communities to socialise.

storm in a teacup. come on, were big kids, we can have our own communities, make our own rules, use 3rd party aps like dischord, skype, teamspeak, we can police ourselves, or not, take our own risks or not, its fine. we dont need GGG to organise us and take responsibility for us like the teachers running the playgroup, we got this, its fine. ive never traded a harvest craft, dont plan on ever trading one either way, no ones forcing me to and if i did i can ask for a security payment from the other guy.


The difference is Harvest is core and affects everyone. Mechanically (crafting) it's not mirror service that some 0.1% will participate in.

It's also not just some other league mechanic because of how valuable it is. Harvest isn't just another Abyss or Delve 'well if you don't like it just skip it'. You're literally lighting exalts on fire if you're not using the TFT discord.

Rewards should be roughly equivalent and I mean VERY roughly - I'm not the type of player who sees a 5% advantage and flocks to it b/c 'well its the best I have to do it'. I don't even care about a 100 or 200% difference. I didn't buy a regal -> exalt trinket in Heist although I could have. But we've got to be in the same universe on this stuff and Harvest is way out of bounds, obviously. Same for skill balance.

Kept this way, as we all know outside of a small handful of new players and trolls, GGG will buff monsters to compensate for the accessible power that Harvest grants (especially with how early in a league you can get it via black market TFT). That means less build diversity and more pressure on you to not use that fun/meme unique or skill gem or build. Or it means the average map that that character can do will drop by 5 tiers or more.

I would never suggest players can't "have our own communities, make our own rules, use 3rd party aps like dischord, skype, teamspeak, we can police ourselves, or not, take our own risks or not, its fine". What I have been suggesting is that GGG shouldn't gate the best items in the game behind those things. Because those things aren't an ARPG. They're not even gameplay.

I also despise that current Harvest completely invalidates the found+identified item. It started with Shaper/Elder bases - dropped loot becomes less important/valuable as a league matures while influenced bases become more desired. Conquerors accelerated that curve. Harvest obliterated it. Crafting should take items from average -> good or exceptional -> perfect....not from white base to whatever you want it to be.

-Edit- to add, I don't begrudge Harvest being insane within its own league, that's what leagues are for, to run experiments. They were never supposed to bring it back at 98% of its league power/reward level. And if that was the intention and it is also the intention for stuff to be tradable, then those trades should be facilitated via official orbs like Beastcrafts.

If the trading is unintended, then great. Brick the system for the TFT use case and rebalance as needed.

Last edited by innervation on Feb 23, 2021, 1:40:57 PM
"
innervation wrote:

The difference is Harvest is core and affects everyone. Mechanically (crafting) it's not mirror service that some 0.1% will participate in.



ive bought multiple mirrors in leagues, they cost me around 30-40 exalts each. at the point you are getting scammed for a 100ex item ur trying to make into a 6x t1, essentially mirror worthy item then you are well into that bracket of player, if harvest didnt exist you would be using that wealth to mirror an item of similar power.


not everyone who uses harvest trades harvests, i bet less than 0.1% of people who have played poe this league have traded harvests. i havent even traded harvests.


"
innervation wrote:

Kept this way, as we all know outside of a small handful of new players and trolls, GGG will buff monsters to compensate for the accessible power that Harvest grants (especially with how early in a league you can get it via black market TFT). That means less build diversity and more pressure on you to not use that fun/meme unique or skill gem or build. Or it means the average map that that character can do will drop by 5 tiers or more.




i dunno if i agree with that. harvest reduces the power gap between top end players and average journeyman endgame players, and it enables a wider variety of builds by putting niche mod combos in easier reach of normal endgame players imo.

i dont rly think it effects power creep much in real terms. the top end of people are still just putting on a headhunter which gives them literally 200,000 life and 200,000,000 damage. they were already in a position where virtually nothing else on their character mattered. some of the most powerful things people on low budgets are doing have nothing to do with rares either, mom cloak/pledge/essence worm/foible/crown archmages are doing 10,000,000s of damage and none of their rare items really matter at all, everything they use that matters is a cheap as shit unique item. people are crafting 400 pdps weapons, and the top top top guys are going 500, 600+... sure, and yet look at what people like don the crown are doing, the highest damage attack builds on the scene are using dual wield unique weapons.


the power was already there and its not really changed, the difference is now you can elevate some stuff that took too much gear to be competitive with those options and actually be viable with it self found or at non-nolife trade levels because you can craft that niche rare gear you needed. i dont think it actually changes many peoples power potential, it just increases the diversity of what they can do within that power bracket. the people who gain virtually no power are the people doing the mirror level stuff, theres literally 0 things they can do now that they couldnt do before. the people who gained the most power are the middle men, the journeyman average player playing non meta builds who uses their own harvests and makes some cool jewels and a couple of cool weapons/amulets that actually give them a power buff over their previous rare item game, and i would argue the game was never balanced around them anyway, the game is balanced around the meta.



thats my take anyway. i respect your opinion innervation, youre always on the forums and you make consistently good points, we might not agree on this one but i understand and respect your position on it still.

I always lowball all my items, i just want them to sell, but sometimes i get asked for sale when i'm in the loo, sometimes i'm asked for sale when in labirynth or fighting in a challenging deli/blight map or just a endgame boss, often times I have no time to even say 'sry busy' or i'll rip. Other times I ask myself is my juiced deli portal really worth trip back and forth for a 2c items? Often the answer is no....
But what really blights me is my memory, I can't finish mavens challenge cause i cant memorise memory game :/ I also often forget all these interested in buying after couple of minutes of mapping, unless they keep spamming which in my opinion is alright
"
Snorkle_uk wrote:

and i would argue the game was never balanced around them anyway, the game is balanced around the meta.



Time will tell on everything.

The game is a knowledge game though. You might be right that not many people by absolute % are trading craft services via discord but stuff like that trickles down. How many people used PoB or awakened trade macro when they first come out? But stuff like this doesn't lose users over time - they only gain them because they are a "best-in-market" product and the "only game in town". So if 5% of players are trading crafts now it will be 10% next league, 33% the league after that and so on until it hits the wall of the only growth left to achieve is impossible because the remainder left out don't use 3rd party programs at all.

When the new player first starts they may watch an introductory youtube vid by Ziz and open the wiki. If they get hooked and come back next league they'll graduate to more advanced supplementary manuals. Eventually this player gets so 'good' at the game that they'll be going to discord to improve their characters because, as implemented, that is the optimal end game for every character in a temp trade league. That's a fact of the system currently.

That you and I haven't used Harvest craft discord trading, to me, is great evidence that the system is poorly designed, or the situation we're in is an undesigned oversight. We SHOULD be using the service from a zoomed-out, low info point of view. Why WOULDN'T we use the most efficient system to make the best gear and upgrade our characters? We don't for reasons that are our own, but we've been put in a very stupid situation through no fault of our own making.

I guess the 'allure' of using a 3rd party system to trade for a crafting service never occurred to me until the Harvest roll out because I never anticipated finding a mirror (still don't, and if I do I won't be using it) and I was always happy farming my own double corruptions - which represent two things Harvest doesn't have - a very modest relative power gain on success and a huge chance to brick your item in the failure case.

I get how they're similar but I see them as pretty different. And thank you for the kind words fellow internet traveler, I always mentally lumped you in with the sincere ones as well.

"
drklrd wrote:

So go play SSF dude, you seem to have an issue when players play with other players so go play on your own.

Abuse this , abuse that. Bestiary abuse, Harvest abuse, TFT abusers.


Please share what you are using with me? I need to get that high too!
"There's no thing like random one-shots in this game. You only die because you take 353,456,237 hits in 0.2 seconds."

"The best items in the game should not be crafted, they should be TRADED." - Cent, GGG
Never trust to strangers, lol. Especially if its not a 2c worth item.
Anyway, thats just a new wave of scam-whine threads, shortly after "emp lvl 1 instead of emp4" "shavs 4+2 link instead of 6" and so on.
Like we say in our country - "goof is not a mammoth - he will not gonna extinct" - scammers will always have someone to scam.

And you can easily get any items you need without that idiotic discord trading. Damn, just play the game, ffs.

Report Forum Post

Report Account:

Report Type

Additional Info