The giant Elephant in the room currently (Expros take on meta)

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Phrazz wrote:

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DarthSki44 wrote:

Basically somehow Diablo players are the Marvel movie loving morons that like "shallow as fuck" gameplay, and PoE is the artistic award winning Connoisseur's of arpg's that enjoy deeper levels "outside the AAA mainstream" that we cannot possibly understand. So sure go enjoy Shape of Water, because you couldn't possibly be caught dead watching Spiderman...what would the other elites think???

Edit: You were not very specific here, but do you intend to play D4? My guess is yes, and if so, I find your position quite odd, defending ambiguous players that don't share your point of view, but that you are speaking on behalf of or something?

You are TRYING to read things between the lines that aren't there.

I never compared PoE to "award winning Connoisseur's". YOU did. I never said people can't understand PoE. YOU did. I enjoy AAA movies too. I enjoy shallow games from time to time too. "Shallow", as I DIRECTLY wrote, isn't necessarily bad, it's just bad IF you're searching for a non-shallow game. And personally, I do not like my ARPG's shallow. I may want my shooter games shallow from time to time. You plainly ignore that I said Blizzard usually nails the technicalities 100%, something GGG do not. Far from.

It's very hard to have a discussion with someone deliberately misunderstands what I'm writing, searching for things between the lines that is not my intention, effectively putting words in my mouth.

On your edit: You find my position quite odd, because you put YOUR opinions between my lines. I follow D4's development, and I'm still on the fence. After the lates updates, showing off the skill tree, where each skills had like 3-4 nodes behind them, they showed to me that they are not appealing to ME as a player (and before you put in some hidden meaning here; no, I do not blame them for that. The world doesn't revolve around me. It just it what it is, a bit too shallow for me, perfect for others).

I'm not defending anyone. Players don't need defending for chooseing Diablo 3, 4, PoE or all three. I'm just saying that a huge part of PoE's player base are here, because Diablo 3 couldn't give them what they were searching for. And currently, it doesn't look like Diablo 4 can either (in my eyes).

To be honest it's hard to follow or discuss anything with you in detail because when pressed essentially you claim you are not saying anything at all after making a post. You do this all the damn time. ITS BIZZARE AND CONFUSING.

I mean you basically said D3 is "shallow as fuck", but apparently that isn't a bad thing? Really? That's what you meant? "shallow as fuck" is actually a compliment for a game to some players? C'mon man. That's a bullshit explanation imo.

Even right now, you personally don't have an opinion on either Diablo or PoE in general, and in addition would rather sit on the fence for D4 (which for a game in development how can anyone even have a firm review?) You don't defend anyone, nor blame anyone. You are speaking for a huge part of PoE's playerbase that dislike D3, but in addition you see where players are coming from that like Diablo instead, or like both?

I mean wtf. Just have an opinion, whatever the fuck it is, and be done with it. At least we can then agree to disagree, or have a decent conversation.

You are the one that jumped on my post originally and started this. I suppose where I'm going with this, and then we can be done, is as follows:

WHAT WAS THE POINT OF YOUR ORIGINAL POST THAT STARTED THIS MESS?

OH WAIT HERE IT WAS:

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Phrazz wrote:

My point? Hmmm, I think I lost it in there somewhere

Blizzard is not the company most people grew up with, they're really in the business of pump and dump games now; I doubt D4 will be any different.

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DarthSki44 wrote:

I mean wtf. Just have an opinion, whatever the fuck it is, and be done with it. At least we can then agree to disagree, or have a decent conversation.

Just because you seem unable to understand my point, doesn't mean it's not there. I'll simplify it for you.

Diablo 3 is, and diablo 4 will probably be "light" on several elements a lot of players deem important. Customization, complexity and depth. When ARPG games are light on those elements, I tend to call them "shallow". In my head, "shallow" is when you value what's on the surface, while you don't necessarily value "the depth" as much.

Diablo 3 was VERY light on these elements, that's why I used the words "...as fuck". I hope you can forgive me sometime in the future. That doesn't make Diablo 3 or 4 "bad" - objectively, but absolutely not the game a lot of players are hoping for. Hence my first post, where I compared Diablo to a AAA movie, made for people wanting a "shallow" experience, which a lot of people want when they go to the movies.

What these movies (or games) don't do, is appealing to viewers/gamers searching for a deeper, more custmoized experience. Numbers aren't everything, and doesn't automatically speak to quality. That was my whole point of my first post where I quoted you. You clearly saw this as some kind of attack, without me understanding why. If you read my first post, word for word, without trying to interpret everything left and right, don't let yourself be personally insulted by the word "shallow" and don't try to search for any hidden meaning between the lines, I think it will make sense to you.

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Phrazz wrote:

My point? Hmmm, I think I lost it in there somewhere

Why don't you just quote the whole sentence, where I actually wrote my point? Jesus. I can now count three times you put words into my mouth to fit your narrative, and one severe case of misquoting to make a point. The last word is yours. I'm done.

Ok last word, even though they are mostly yours.

Phrazz:

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Phrazz wrote:

Just because you seem unable to understand my point, doesn't mean it's not there.

Also Phrazz:

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Phrazz wrote:

My point? Hmmm, I think I lost it in there somewhere.

Still Phrazz:

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Phrazz wrote:

Why don't you just quote the whole sentence, where I actually wrote my point? Jesus.

I did quote the entire sentence. Not the entire paragraph of multiple sentences if that's what you meant. Sorry if that doesn't help your argument. It is what it is.

Have a good one.

Good to see my anti-Blizzard screed (a result of having just gotten up and being cranky about work) led to a lively discussion!

To restate my point less angrily:

Diablo 4 is going to be different than PoE. It will appeal to many of the same players while leaving out many others. People will play Diablo 4 for a bit then get bored.

PoE won't die as a result of this other game releasing. The idea that there is only room on the market for one game of a particular genre at a time is kind of ludicrous.

But also I have such little faith in Blizzard and AAA monetization schemes (GGG isn't perfect but there's a lot worse out there) that I could see D4 being ruined by some weird form of pay-to-win or real-money gambling. Yes, a bajillion people would still play it - tons of people play EA-owned sports games where they have to gamble with real money to unlock players, after all - but that wouldn't make it any more ethical.

This game actually has difficulty, unlike some other AARPGs where every build has a near equal chance to succeed.

The downside of this is that you really have to spend many (thousands) of hours learning all game mechanics before creating successful builds (not thousands on one build, but thousands for the knowledge to create).

Or... like 99% of the population does, you follow the meta.

At that point, are you even playing for yourself?

Is it really "more skillful, higher brain power" to copy a build guide?

Debatable.

In the end, I play PoE because I can at least lose this game, unlike others that are pretty fun but hard to not beat with one finger and your eyes closed (grim dawn, D4, van helsing, etc.)

I don't want my hand held. I ripped 8 characters this league. Finally found something I liked in glad lacerate. I know, top build but the good thing here is you can configure it infinitely between the passives, the gear, the keystones, the cluster jewels, etc.

My only criticism in this game is and always was the rigidity of the gameplay loop. For years I've said having everything under the atlas is boring. Maps are boring to me. Though interestingly I prefer maps over Heist.

The fact is for any ARPG where repetition is prominent you want as few PvE scripted elements as possible involved. I don't want to hear Heist NPCs talk as often as they do and I think the fact I have to order a master thief to pick a lock is redundant. Simply put the ARPG does its best when it streamlines the gameplay feature to what others might call "run and gun" but really it's just streamlined. I look to delve for this.

Delve could have done a lot wrong. Let's say for example azerite wasn't auto picked up. Or that you had to farm fragments which delayed your flare and grenade upgrades immensely. Delve didn't make these mistakes. Much of the redundant stuff was automated and the upgrade path for Delve felt good. It never feels like a slog until you need to return to maps to get sulphite. And there is the problem. Sulphite represents everything wrong with the game. A resource that needs to be farmed and feels like farming to make progress in an area you enjoy being in.

Much of the same could be said about Harvest. A sliver of what you like doing nested in an ocean of crap you hate. There's poor balance here. The same could be said of Heist. Good loot, some decent fights, a LOT of annoying build up and NPC talk.

I think the company can do very well but they need to start asking the questions about what players should be interacting with. About when controls and UI elements get in the way of a good time rather than enhancing it.

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DarthSki44 wrote:

I mean you basically said D3 is "shallow as fuck", but apparently that isn't a bad thing? Really? That's what you meant? "shallow as fuck" is actually a compliment for a game to some players? C'mon man. That's a bullshit explanation imo.

It's not hard to understand at all. Some people like casual/shallow games. Some want something more deep and complex. I think the point was that 'casual' is not a bad thing per se.

For example, my best friend's girlfiend is not a gamer and plays video games very rarely, but D3 was an excellent choice for her because it was casual, straightforward and had an easy progression. POE would probably blow her mind. But for others the lack of depth and complexity is a big lackluster.

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esostaks wrote:

It's not hard to understand at all. Some people like casual/shallow games. Some want something more deep and complex. I think the point was that 'casual' is not a bad thing per se.
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Just a side comment, here:

Diablo 3 isn't a "shallow" game. Once you get past a certain level of complexity and hurdles to overcome to achieve goals, any game moves into it's own definition of "shallow/deep" and it's not really comparable.

PoE is literally a grab-bag full of wtfisallthisiamlost mechanics and things to do. That's not a bad thing for those who enjoy a sort of open-world experience with lots of "mini-games" in their gaming. And, because of PoE's intentional design making progression much more difficult simply due to "complexity" (gotta keep players in the game to make that MTX money) one's own judgement may become a bit... clouded.

If anything, one could say PoE is overly complex compared to other ARPG games.

In the general stable of ARPG games, the Diablo series is the "standard ARPG gameplay" they're all judged by. It may be viewed as "shallower" by a PoE player, but that's because PoE is so very much more complex.

Note: Diablo 3 has kept what long-term play customer base it has due to competitive ladder mechanics. They've failed abysmally there, though, so many times that it got to the point where nobody cared anymore. Then, they sung a massive ban-hammer at the account base. I think they're going to be very active in managing competitive mechanics in D4 or, rather, they are going to want to seem to be very active there. It may be a very interesting thing to watch.

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Morkonan wrote:

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esostaks wrote:

It's not hard to understand at all. Some people like casual/shallow games. Some want something more deep and complex. I think the point was that 'casual' is not a bad thing per se.
..

Just a side comment, here:

Diablo 3 isn't a "shallow" game. Once you get past a certain level of complexity and hurdles to overcome to achieve goals, any game moves into it's own definition of "shallow/deep" and it's not really comparable.

PoE is literally a grab-bag full of wtfisallthisiamlost mechanics and things to do. That's not a bad thing for those who enjoy a sort of open-world experience with lots of "mini-games" in their gaming. And, because of PoE's intentional design making progression much more difficult simply due to "complexity" (gotta keep players in the game to make that MTX money) one's own judgement may become a bit... clouded.

If anything, one could say PoE is overly complex compared to other ARPG games.

In the general stable of ARPG games, the Diablo series is the "standard ARPG gameplay" they're all judged by. It may be viewed as "shallower" by a PoE player, but that's because PoE is so very much more complex.

Note: Diablo 3 has kept what long-term play customer base it has due to competitive ladder mechanics. They've failed abysmally there, though, so many times that it got to the point where nobody cared anymore. Then, they sung a massive ban-hammer at the account base. I think they're going to be very active in managing competitive mechanics in D4 or, rather, they are going to want to seem to be very active there. It may be a very interesting thing to watch.

You are probably right. POE arguably has deeper mechanics and more content even compared to such beloved classic ARPG as Diablo 2.

At the end of the day the endgame of any ARPG is grinding. It's just that POE managed to sugarcoat this grinding in a very nice and beautiful wrap, and that's what I truly love about the game.

I didn't jump to Diablo 3 hate bandwagon because it was popular to hate on the game or because of elitist attitude. From 2013 I tried getting into POE three times, but it just didn't click, never made it through the acts.

In 2017 I bought Diablo 3 made it to the endgame, played a fair share, then took a break. I really enjoyed it and couldn't understand why people were hating the game because its Rift mechanics was already more content compared to your typical ARPG where you just farm the same few bosses for a better gear.

In 2018 I wanted to jump back into D3. It happened so that the new season of D3 and the new League of POE Incursion started about the same time. I hesitated wether to return to D3 or to finally try seriously the so praised gem POE.

I choose POE and after reaching endgame and playing for about 60 hours it finally hit me, because I saw how much more POE has to offer in terms of content and depth. Meanwhile the only endgame in D3 was grinding infinite greater rifts and paragons. And as I said earlier in this thread - Blizzard had all the resources in the world to improve their game, keep adding content to make the game fresh. Yet the only thing they do is change the numbers to change META and make people switch to different builds.

But again, it's OK to like a more casual game with shallower content. Sometimes after a hard day of work I also want to shut my brain off and Diablo 3 is great for it - not saying it in a bad or arrogant way. I myself don't play games like Rim World of Factorio because they make my brain melt.