dear GGG a message of love that many others seem to support (Mathil Video link below)
" I like this guy, balanced, articulate, and not a hint of toxicity. Last edited by IcedInferno007#3962 on Aug 17, 2020, 2:14:12 PM
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" Nope. I've done everything I'd ever want to do in the game. I ran a big guild (into the ground, slowly). I've played hundreds of SSF builds to their natural conclusion -- early to mid maps, at which point the game becomes intensely boring to me. I've designed items. A monster. I've hung with the devs at conventions and their office, seeing behind the curtain a bit. I've moderated these forums. I've been kicked from these forums. I've returned to these forums. I've been hated on reddit, repeatedly. I've watched the game go from a promising 'hardcore' ARPG, a real Diablo-killer, to a trade-driven shoot-em-up where QA and QoL come at a premium, and am only thankful that the journey was long and slow and full of wonderful highlights. Most importantly, my deep flirtation with the free to play model has given me new and lasting appreciation for buying games with no-to-minimal mtxes, even if those games aren't as 'good' as PoE at its best. But that's the catch-22 here: we'll never know if a PoE that retained the creators' vision rather than serving as an excuse to sell mtxes would have made enough money to become as great as PoE did become. It's a big what-if, and the closest we'll come to an answer is to watch other ARPGs in development, especially the ones that choose not to go f2p and can therefore focus not on creating gimmicks to keep people regularly coming back, but making a game that is somewhat finished on release, as PoE never actually was and likely never will be. The free to play model promotes soap operatic structure -- no ending, and not too far down a narrative arc that people can't just jump in with a little instruction. Although I think as dense as PoE is now, it's less easy-to-pick-up soap opera and more like season 54 of Supernatural, which would take hours upon hours of explanation just to get a new viewer up to speed. Which, in turn, tells me GGG aren't that concerned with new players by now. They would rather keep relying on the steady stream of support from habitual users who cannot conceive of not-supporting their favourite 'free' time-killer. And as I said, I was happy to count among that number, to lead the charge really, even long after I stopped enjoying the game all that much, until it became clear that my support wasn't going towards what I wanted it to. And I don't mean something as simplistic as 'Communist China', although that certainly was a factor. So no, I absolutely do not regret escaping the PoE orbit, because sooner or later, it's going to decay -- although: " And that's pretty much the bottom line. If, despite anything else you might not like about POE, you're still having fun, then have that fun! Even when your own personal orbit starts to decay, you'll have had many, many rotations to remember fondly. Keep making those memories, and don't let anyone take them away from you. :) If I like a game, it'll either be amazing later or awful forever. There's no in-between. I am Path of Exile's biggest whale. Period. Last edited by Foreverhappychan#4626 on Aug 17, 2020, 2:33:35 PM
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(I'm putting a spoiler tag for concision's sake, but there are enough good points in here for this post to warrant its own forum thread so it's definitely worth checking out for people new to this thread)
" I had no idea about the "McDonald's in China" thing, and it certainly does put a bit of dark irony into my metaphor. Not that I think it makes the analogy any less accurate... quite the opposite, really. Regardless, you made a fair point about me oversimplifying the nature of the beast, but I'm not sure of any restaurant chains famous enough worldwide to really capture the spirit of how I see GGG these days in a relatively short metaphor. Maybe I should stop bothering to even try keeping my posts short? But I've had my share of post edits/deletions/forum probation for things I couldn't wrap my brain around (albeit not quite to the infamous extent you have) so I guess I've been conditioned into avoiding giant walls of text, when the alternative seems to be having the meat stripped off the bones of a post and removing important context for the scraps left behind. But hey, they left your post intact for once, so maybe I'll get grandfathered in? Anyway... To attempt to return to the actual topic of the thread, I was simply saying that since the "average" player doesn't even reach maps, balancing the game around them makes about as much sense as a chef picking core menu items based on the opinions of people who come in for a happy hour cocktail and then leave. Or, if you prefer (since there's certainly some truth to the comparison), a drug dealer setting their prices according to the opinions of teetotalers. In both of these cases, as in Path of Exile, the product should be designed with the clientele in mind. And I don't even know who that is anymore, which is how I've felt since Synthesis League. It's definitely not me, and that's fine. But the shriek-filled echo chamber that is the subreddit right now really needs to have more people considering that maybe it isn't them, either, and that this doesn't mean the end of the world. Play the game until it stops being fun, and then do something else with your time. Like Factorio! Maybe the only thing that games, food, beer, and books have in common is that they are all at their best when they're made according to the vision of the creator-artists, instead of watered down into something boring for the sake of wider mainstream appeal. The consumer's goal should be to find a creator-artist whose vision aligns with theirs, not to try and radically change something that exists against the vision of (in this case) the lead game developers. Last edited by ARealLifeCaribbeanPirate#2605 on Aug 17, 2020, 3:30:17 PM
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" I was dreading a combative reply given my unprovoked aggression towards your analogy, so thank you for not turning this into a...situation where either of us could appear less than civil and thus potentially worthy of the red-badge-of-dishonour. It is most appreciated. Factorio has been on my radar for a while, but I'll be honest: Satisfactory looks more my speed, although even that I prefer to watch others creatively break the game than immersing in it myself. And by others, I mean This Motherfucking Beast Right Here. Easily the most enjoyable streamer I've ever seen, and pure gold for both viewers and devs who don't mind someone beta testing the shit out of their works-in-progress for free. Regarding the average player never reaching Maps thing: I used to fly that flag pretty high, given there was some weird reputation out there that I'd never played a Map in my life (when I probably played one before most of the people believing that), but I think it's misleading now. Chris was almost certainly talking the totality of created characters rather than accounts, and that unfortunately includes bots. And we know the game has a bit of a bot problem. So...while it might be statistically true that most characters never enter a Map portal, I'm willing to bet the vast majority of regular players do. At my most sceptical, my most jaded, I admit that I don't think anyone reading or using this forum is part of the target audience. Nor, as you noted, the howling void that is the PoE subreddit. In those fits of pique, I believe that the Chinese players are the target audience and it is they who receive the polished product; compared to what they're paying for (and pay they do), the international PoE is a slouching mess of obfuscated subsystems, glutted with poorly implemented leftovers from each league and bereft of much in the way of user-friendly streamlining (because as we all know, streamlining means simplifying and OMG GO PLAY DIABLOW 3 IF THAT'S WHAT U WANT LOLZ). I would publicly fellate a cucumber to know what sort of cash Tencent are pulling in per month from their version of PoE. Even now I look at their site and marvel over the slickness of it all. You don't go to that effort if you don't expect to make it all back and then some, and a company the size of Tencent isn't going to settle for a low ROI. So yeah, gun to the head and all that, I reckon that's your real player base. You and anyone else playing the International PoE? Dregs. But that's just me at my gloomiest. Because I also know and acknowledge that even if what TencentGGG deploy every so often is rough around the edges, it's still a lot of work and perfectly playable. It is, if you're into it, worth supporting. I just think it's hard to do that knowing that (uh-oh food analogy incoming) you're eating adequately-prepared sushi from the same haul that is shipped off to China where it's turned into an entire seafood gourmet. Sure, their PoE is pay-to-win by the International PoE standard but nothing overtly insidious by any other f2p standard. It might even be worth it... But that's creating a false dichotomy I think. There is no rule that states a f2p, non-p2w POE has to be as crude and user-unfriendly as the current one is. It seems a strange attitude adopted by gamers that because a game is free, it is given a pass on certain shortcomings. Never mind how much that game pulls in (in some cases, much more than a triple A title over the long term). We're back at the dealer analogy -- no point in wasting time and money on gussying up a product people are going to consume regardless. OTOH all legal products of addiction spend oodlefucktonnes of cash on advertising and product image, but that's because there's competition. PoE desperately needs real competition to get out of this rut of creative dehydration, of quality being a lower priority. And I'm sure the devs are aware of that, even if it's in their owner's best interest, in their very instincts, to maintain a monopoly. I hope it's a matter of time before Tencent make Eleventh Hour Games an offer they hopefully can refuse. And that's the best-case scenario. Finally, the issue of creator-artist vision vs adapting to the clientele: it's a balance, of course, and no one would accuse GGG of doing well in that regard. They'll compromise as a business because there's money in that -- don't pretend for a second that PoE being a Chinese product hasn't and won't influence the game's design. Much easier to make Chinese-friendly content than have to change it at a later date. But compromise with their players? That's pretty rare, and most times they do, there's some lingering regret and long-term problems. Most obvious example: allocated loot. That was a huge issue back when. Massive thread. Multiple threads. GGG knew that allocated loot was against their vision of the game, but eventually they had to admit that their vision wasn't what people wanted. The knock-on effect was drastic but slow to manifest, and by the time anyone noticed it it was too late: PoE was balanced (heh) around FFA loot, thereby ensuring melee/close ranged styles were adequately rewarded for their risk-taking. Safer ranged play missed out on the choicest loot, but died a lot less and so retained more experience. This was fundamental to the notion of a truly 'hardcore ARPG' where risk matches reward. But GGG caved, implemented allocated loot, and suddenly ranged play had no real drawbacks. Melee play had no real advantage. This was, whether anyone wants to admit it or not, the very decision that led to the speed meta. And yet GGG probably had no choice. Players really were quitting because of the unfairness of FFA loot. They got what they asked for, but didn't really stop to wonder why GGG didn't implement it in the first place. As it turns out, there was a very good reason. Oh shit, the devs actually knew what they were doing, even if players couldn't grasp it? Oh. Well. But then there are examples of compromise like nets in Bestiary. Their removal was another caving, but a good one. The last thing a speed-based PoE needs is a slowing mechanism like throwing a net manually amid frantic, frenetic combat. By the time I played the Bestiary mechanic, Einhar was handling all of that and I was thankful for it. I had enough to manage, thank you very much. It's no secret that whatever PoE is now, it's definitely not the ARPG the devs wanted to make so that they could play it themselves. I don't know if that was just a cheap tagline they threw around in the early days to sucker in fat wallets like mine, but if so, they did a damn good job feigning sincerity. And of course buyer's remorse and personal experience doesn't permit me to really believe it, to think Chris could be that duplicitous. I think he's very shrewd, but not outright conniving or treacherous. I think what we played in Closed Beta was definitely the ARPG GGG themselves wanted to play. Maybe even some of Open Beta. But not long after that the game became a product first, artistic creation very much second. Which is fine: sooner or later, a product has to transition from the niche to the mainstream if it has the chops to do so. And PoE most certainly did. Another doubt I'll never not have: was PoE's evolution from hardcore niche ARPG to trade-driven, mtx-blinded spam-fest Chris' plan all along? Chris liked to say, 'the players are the boss', but I think this was him being his usual mix of sly, glib, poignant and earnest. It was true -- without our support, the game was nothing. But it was also untrue -- increasingly, player feedback was being disregarded as GGG started to formulate long-term plans for league ideas, and for international expansion. The players aren't the boss; they're the small-fish investors being told what they want to hear, appeased not through obvious kowtowing but a carefully calibrated mix of reassurance, defiance and resilience. League to league, it's business as usual. Support packs. Meta builds. OP items. Frustrating mechanics. Most importantly, PoE promises its devotees a simulacrum of genuine mastery over a game 'too difficult' for the vast majority of gamers. I am sure no one needs to look too hard to find examples of what happens when that delusion of superiority goes to a person's head. But -- to bring this back around -- in every field, even mostly unproductive ones such as a computer game, there are genuine experts, and they will stand out one way or another. The population will choose its representative not as the 'everyday' type but as its paragon, its ideal, and PoE's current population has done that with Mathil. Superiority doesn't go to his head; he is just outright superior. Any arrogance or abrasion you might detect in his bearing is more than outweighed by the fact that he can back it all up if called on it. For Exiles, he's basically the ubermensch. There's something curiously democratic about it: if he weren't worthy, people wouldn't watch him. They might gripe about streamer luck or how the game they play is balanced around the top 1%, but maybe they'd be bored if their favourite streamer wasn't appropriately challenged. Then again, what do we even mean by 'population'? Surely there are plenty of players who don't even know who Mathil is. So technically they're not involved in this process...so, silent, insular, seemingly unaffected by any of this and uninterested in being part of the vox populi -- are they even part of the population? Again: statistically, of course; effectively? Maybe not. It's just really sad when and if they realise that 'seemingly unaffected' is only that -- seemingly -- and soon learn how pointless it is for an individual to try to be heard now, now that player feedback is less about simply giving it yourself and more about somehow trying to make it come out of a mouth to which TencentGGG have decided it's profitable to listen...and even maybe unprofitable to ignore. OH FUCK THAT ENDED UP REALLY LONG. SORRY. Okay back to shooting shit in Elite. If I like a game, it'll either be amazing later or awful forever. There's no in-between. I am Path of Exile's biggest whale. Period. Last edited by Foreverhappychan#4626 on Aug 18, 2020, 2:41:55 PM
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"there are some shady practices but they haven't crossed the line for me yet. i'm still watching what they do with the game. i'm curious what they're business model will be after poe 2... hope poe 2 brings you back man :) wish i could have been there when the game first started :) Last edited by BlackPulsar#5393 on Aug 17, 2020, 5:58:40 PM
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" Considering that I watched the WHOLE video you linked, it was extra long. The video was a game that I'm really interested in playing but it was a very entertaining watch. :-) Your post too was long but apology not needed. I enjoyed that as well. Over 430 threads discussing labyrinth problems with over 1040 posters in support (thread # 1702621) Thank you all! GGG will implement a different method for ascension in PoE2. Retired!
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streamers in poe
they get currency handed to them by fans they do shady deals and rmt currency clickbaits builds. I'm not sure if I want to ask what's your real opinion without watching someones elses video or opinion first. "Parade your victories, hide your defeats. Mortals are so insecure."
Once you break the cycle of fear no angels or demons can whisper you their sweet nothing words. poe0.2/10. Nuff said. |
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" If GGG made some things in the game faster, the players who spend more time playing will benefit more than the average player, further increasing the gap. Not reducing it. Your time will be worth less, not more. Unless you purely play SSF. |
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benefit?
im not a streamer, there is no 'benefit' other than having fun for me if you cut junk from the game (various non-QoL time wastes) and reduce time needed to experience the game from 100 to 20 per character ill get more fun (more builds to test, more wacky interactions to explore) - im more Woolfio than Empy. i can spend itsyoji's hours, not slipperyjim's hours on this game. benefit? like seriously what are these? i do not give a slightest quack about some 8h/7d streamers being able to farm more exalts. are people really seeing the 'benefit' only in pixel money? current POE's design is FORCED time waste. things like: unveil 1000+ items each league, delve to lvl 150 each league, uber trials hunt each league, play an unfun yet powerul and cheap build to get some money each league, collect starting capital so you can at least recolor your items each league, collect crafting recipes (while also having unveiling recipes to collect).. the list goes on and on i do not know about you, but i do not find these things FUN. these are artificial time sinks, faux content. EACH LEAGUE thats why i do not play leagues. these 'activities' are put there to slow players down due to unsubstantiated fear of people getting bored if they reach 'good parts' too quickly that is a 'sound' strategy if you dont believe your own game is good enough to attract and keep players without such lazy tactics imagine playing Civ4 where your first 5 hours of a 15hours game are intentionally wasted on stuff that has no meaning (if you havent played Civ4 - EVERY turn you take has a meaning and can win/lose you the game in the long run. EVERY SINGLE ONE). POE is just that with slight adjustment that you waste 5 minutes every 15 minutes on stuff that really has no place in any game why people defend this time-tax tactics so zealously? what benefit do they bring to you? Last edited by sidtherat#1310 on Aug 18, 2020, 3:20:00 AM
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" By benefit I mean that your time spent playing will be devalued further than it is right now. You are playing in an economy where time is worth something. If players are spending less time doing unnecessary stuff, the players who play more will benefit more. Things you do will be worth less than they are now unless you play SSF. You won't be able to make more builds etc. because your items/currency will be worth less. Last edited by SaiyanZ#3112 on Aug 18, 2020, 4:09:05 AM
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