Harvest could be worst league ever?

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kuciol wrote:

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SeCKSEgai wrote:

No wonder you think so much of this stuff is irrelevant, you've never done it.

When your max level is 91 and you've never beaten Sirus, there's no way you'd be able to grasp just how far the bar goes beyond him.

I'm quite familiar with SSF, most of my Legion, you know, the CYCLONE league was done as SSF. But as I needed to upgrade my weapon and crafting in SSF is even more of a gamble I moved him out and finished the league in trade. And I definitely stuck around long enough to unlock the 5 socket map in SSF but failing shaper wasn't worth the risk since Guardian Map drops weren't dropping frequently enough to just farm it in SSF, at least not unless I went at streamer map-clear speed which is not enjoyable for me at all.

I deleted most of my chars when they went to standard. I did everything when shaper was a thing, when he was still hard, now i dont really care. I prefer making junky builds and try to make them work. I stopped caring about "endgame" in bestiary i believe but thats irrelevant. My point still stands, nobody plays such content. A8 is the last relevant bit of content, everything else is for bragging rights, nothing more. You gain nothing by going further.

Harvest gives you all the tools you need to make great gear and its free. Again the fact that you refuse to use it doesnt mean its not there and thats not devs problem.

I dont care what you did (unlike you as seen above) and in what league. Its not the point. What im saying is that you never balance around 0.001%. You always take middle ground, where its the most relevant. Thats the case in every PvE focused games. You start going to extremes in any direction and you will fail.

So here's the issue. You're claiming knowledge you don't have and basing everything off dated experience.

You stopped caring about end game in beastiary? That was my first full league.

Nobody plays such content? The folks that 40/40 regularly would say otherwise. So would the 36/40 crowd, which is significantly larger.
A8 is the last relevant? 100% delirium guardian maps was a challenge last league, so was 750 waves of simulacrum. There are plenty of people who exceed 12 challenges.

And if you haven't even killed Sirus once, how are you going to be an accurate judge of A8 to begin with? He is core content, and a boss fight that a lot of folks don't like, even those that can reliably defeat him.

There's absolutely nothing wrong with a max level of 91 or never having beaten Sirus - until you start assuming that your limited knowledge translates to content you did not experience.

Edit - Just to put it in perspective, this game has gotten dramatically harder to progress through since my start midway abyss. Back then I could see the need for more damage grow based on how things went with elder. Now, eradicator puts the entire elder fight to shame. Baran's minions tend to be more dangerous than Baran. You end up often needing more damage than you originally had to get the same experience as before as health goes up for all the bosses.

But I do agree with you, balancing shouldn't be focused around the top tier. Except it is, which is why nerfs hurt more as you travel down the line. For someone who has no problem endlessly running map after map zoom zoom, they're going to see a less severe loss or simply move on to something else. But for folks who weren't running BiS everywhere they're gonna feel them much more.

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SeCKSEgai wrote:

So here's the issue. You're claiming knowledge you don't have and basing everything off dated experience.

You stopped caring about end game in beastiary? That was my first full league.

Nobody plays such content? The folks that 40/40 regularly would say otherwise. So would the 36/40 crowd, which is significantly larger.
A8 is the last relevant? 100% delirium guardian maps was a challenge last league, so was 750 waves of simulacrum. There are plenty of people who exceed 12 challenges.

And if you haven't even killed Sirus once, how are you going to be an accurate judge of A8 to begin with? He is core content, and a boss fight that a lot of folks don't like, even those that can reliably defeat him.

There's absolutely nothing wrong with a max level of 91 or never having beaten Sirus - until you start assuming that your limited knowledge translates to content you did not experience.

If i was wrong you would be easily able to prove my claims as wrong. As it stands all you can say "no its not" without any proof. I started playing during closed beta, i know my shit. I could do everything but as it stands i dont really care and i dont have time to do it so i would rather do something that i actualy like.

0.32% of players have completed 36 challenges and earned the Delirium Wings.
1.32% of players have completed 36 challenges and earned the Metamorph Portal Effect.

Thats how relevant this crowd is. This is nobody in grand scheme of things. So small portion of the community even attempts such content that its not relevant. What would be even the point? Im not a judge as you called it, im stating simple, logical facts.

Agree, worst league i've played so far , waaaay to easy craft "mirror tier" items.
probably quitting the league today, usually play the league for 2-3months

It's funny because people who defend this league assume that every one is crafting. I don't like to craft and that's pretty much all this league has to offer. It may seem strange but my thing in a arpg is to kill stuff, crazy right ?

yes lol
its so boring, i stopped play on second week

The way i see it,a new league must offer some really exciting mechanics and encounters to get me going through unveiling all the veiled items one more time.
Can we craft mirror tier items this league?
Sure. But for what?
To play in standard?
They could just add random encounters on maps with these plant-monsters and it would be far more interesting.

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kuciol wrote:

If i was wrong you would be easily able to prove my claims as wrong. As it stands all you can say "no its not" without any proof. I started playing during closed beta, i know my shit. I could do everything but as it stands i dont really care and i dont have time to do it so i would rather do something that i actualy like.

0.32% of players have completed 36 challenges and earned the Delirium Wings.
1.32% of players have completed 36 challenges and earned the Metamorph Portal Effect.

Thats how relevant this crowd is. This is nobody in grand scheme of things. So small portion of the community even attempts such content that its not relevant. What would be even the point? Im not a judge as you called it, im stating simple, logical facts.

You can't prove someone wrong when they've already convinced himself/herself they're right. Explanations were provided, your lack of working game knowledge meant you just disregarded it.

Playing since closed beta doesn't mean what you think it does, there are players that have surpassed me in their first league, and I've gotten farther than most beta players. Beta means you were there for the beginning, it doesn't mean you have kept up with the constant changes over the years.

But bringing up percentages, most players don't even care enough or enjoy it enough to progress to the mapping stage, so if they simply balanced around the majority there would be no nerfs because most would never get far enough to necessitate it.

Of course, when you factor in that the more dedicated players (and most likely to invest money) are the "minority" doing end game, then yeah they matter.

The herald stack of Delirium would still exist if this small minority of players didn't matter. Most of the player base could never afford even the initial investment. But again, that small minority matters a lot more than you want to give them credit for.

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SeCKSEgai wrote:

You can't prove someone wrong when they've already convinced himself/herself they're right. Explanations were provided, your lack of working game knowledge meant you just disregarded it.

All you did was cry how much it costs to make your chars effective and how in game market matters in balancing when its BS that you even confirmed yourself in this post saying that most players couldnt afford herald stacking.

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SeCKSEgai wrote:

Playing since closed beta doesn't mean what you think it does, there are players that have surpassed me in their first league, and I've gotten farther than most beta players. Beta means you were there for the beginning, it doesn't mean you have kept up with the constant changes over the years.

But i did. The fact that i dont do such content regularly only reinforces my point that in grand scheme of things super top endgame is irrelevant. You did nothing to prove that statement wrong.

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SeCKSEgai wrote:

But bringing up percentages, most players don't even care enough or enjoy it enough to progress to the mapping stage, so if they simply balanced around the majority there would be no nerfs because most would never get far enough to necessitate it.

I already specified what needs to be considered in order to make nerfs, you stick to player count ignoring everything else. It seems like you know you are wrong but cant stand to admit it so you disregard any points made that you cant attack directly or me personally.

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SeCKSEgai wrote:

Of course, when you factor in that the more dedicated players (and most likely to invest money) are the "minority" doing end game, then yeah they matter.

The herald stack of Delirium would still exist if this small minority of players didn't matter. Most of the player base could never afford even the initial investment. But again, that small minority matters a lot more than you want to give them credit for.

Again i told you what needs to be considered for balancing. Power, accessibility, clunkyness, ease of use, ease of replication, gear dependency, prep needed and many more factors.

I feel like this discussion is going nowhere. Game is not and will not be balanced around the hardest possible content because that would be stupid thing to do. You may not agree with this but thats a fact. Unless you provide any evidence that it isnt the case i consider this discussion finished.

SeCKSEgai wrote:

Of course, when you factor in that the more dedicated players (and most likely to invest money) are the "minority" doing end game, then yeah they matter.

The herald stack of Delirium would still exist if this small minority of players didn't matter. Most of the player base could never afford even the initial investment. But again, that small minority matters a lot more than you want to give them credit for.
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Just think if the 1% wasn't in the game (I'm talking trade league)...And I am not talking about the flippers - just the players. Can you imagine how expensive the best gear would be (Harvest league aside) if people were not destroying the endgame and filling the league with Cospri's, Starforges, Shav's etc? How about the best helm enchants? etc.

When you start thinking about the league as a whole the best players (in a general sense) lift up the power of everyone. That's why I had no issues with Herald Stacking or any previous meta builds like Winter Orb, Cyclone etc. that were OP. Having a revolving meta is genius by GGG to keep people playing the game - GGG is only mildly interested about balancing as a way to get the most players engaged in the game. They nerfed Heralds because the cost of the builds were prohibitive for most gamers and the outcry was bad for business. So I agree with Secksegai about this and also the impact of the 1%.

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TheFazzo wrote:

That is a straw argument.
Nerfs are made when a mechanic trivializes content. Herald stackers could tank Sirus' storms. The cost of the build had no impact on the decision.
Endgame is built around the 1% of players but not for the reasons you quote. It is so because otherwise players wouldn't have any incentive to keep playing after reaching a certain treshold. The rest of the game is built around the average player so much that you can confortably finish the 10 acts with whatever gear you can find.
I seriously doubt that from a business standpoint the opinion of that 1% counts that much more because financially they contribute less than the rest of the players. It is not financially sound to build a business model around people that don't earn you that much money.

People love to complain about stuff they don't understand.

Could a herald stacker be built to tank the storms, sure. Did they do that by nature, nope. There were two primary variants, the extra tanky templar guardian side and the faster casting scion. The scion sacrificed defense for more offensive power, and to really start seeing it shine you were investing over 90ex in just two awakened gems alone - something I did not do because that's just too much to lose to depreciation once the league ends (if you actually care about standard).

I wasn't saying that the 1% counts more - but explaining that the reason they're valid is that plenty of decisions are made with them specifically in mind. If the 1% didn't matter, then there's no reason to touch the build because they don't have an impact and no one outside of that could really afford to build it. But as all of us knew it wasn't going to survive post league, it's clear that despite so few falling into that 1% or so they clearly have more impact than Kuciol was giving them credit for in his previous post.

Context matters.