Harvest could be worst league ever?

ignore the troll guys. he is trying to get this topic locked by starting arguments.

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TheFazzo wrote:

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SerenaDrake wrote:

Say a Meta Slave who play spellslinger VD!!

Come on, this is a fair build compared to that game designing mistake that could tank Sirus' storms and trivialize all content. And if you look at my other characters you would hardly define me a meta slave.

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TheFazzo wrote:

I opened to read the OP, found myself laughing so hard at all the people who believe they would be better game designers than the game designers themselves.

Entitlement is real.

If the devs always knew better than the player base, then how could they lack the foresight on how the players would choose to utilize it?

If it is "fair" then why did they nerf the old VD setup that basically played the same way?

Sooner or later one comes to realize that all it takes to become a target of the nerf hammer is popular use. With Delirium core it's set the bar higher than it's ever been before. But the adjustment bureau doesn't factor that in since in order to succeed at that content you're trivializing basically everything else.

The crafting is fun

the gardening less so

Worst league I have ever played. No desire to play so I am not. Came here to check and see what other people are saying.

:(

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SeCKSEgai wrote:

If the devs always knew better than the player base, then how could they lack the foresight on how the players would choose to utilize it?

50 devs vs 500 000 players. Its that simple.

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SeCKSEgai wrote:

If it is "fair" then why did they nerf the old VD setup that basically played the same way?

It is fair. The problem is in how automatic and gear independent it is.

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SeCKSEgai wrote:

Sooner or later one comes to realize that all it takes to become a target of the nerf hammer is popular use. With Delirium core it's set the bar higher than it's ever been before. But the adjustment bureau doesn't factor that in since in order to succeed at that content you're trivializing basically everything else.

Because power is not the only category of evaluating builds. Nobody cares that there is a build that can do 1,3 bilion dps. The problem starts when you have a 5 milion dps one that plays itself and is easy to replicate.

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SeCKSEgai wrote:

If the devs always knew better than the player base, then how could they lack the foresight on how the players would choose to utilize it?

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kuciol wrote:

50 devs vs 500 000 players. Its that simple.

Except its not. Players that don't just blindly copy the builds of others end up learning about nuances and mechanical interactions out of sheer necessity. More minds is obviously a boon, but those minds have to be able to offer insight that could be missed. It's not a dig at the devs but explaining the value of player feedback. The dev side doesn't always know better than the player base side, as a certain mobile game announcement clearly showed even a major player in the industry can lose touch with its player base and get it wrong.

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SeCKSEgai wrote:

If it is "fair" then why did they nerf the old VD setup that basically played the same way?

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kuciol wrote:

It is fair. The problem is in how automatic and gear independent it is.

Explain to me automatic. Before poe even existed, people were able to program to the point where hammerdins could teleport quickly through randomized areas, targeting independently and bailing if health dropped below a certain threshold.

When virtually every build revolves building around a primary skill in poe, there isn't a lot of button mashing aside from flasking and buffs as needed. Even the warcries in their current state are utilized as buffs. Hitting a group with contagion before throwing at that essence drain is akin to cursing a group before attacking it.

And as far as gear independent... what does that really mean? Every build needs to satisfy major resist requirements. Most builds are going to need to supplement an effective health pool, except maybe extreme delving where you may intentionally choose to keep that low. Every build needs to supplement damage regardless.

I'm sure there were "variants", but the old vd relied completely on Poet's Pen, two of them. It couldn't work otherwise because you couldn't guarantee corpse generation, particularly in many boss fights. The unique wand may have enabled the build but you still needed to cover health pool and resists - even summoner necros still have to do that.

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SeCKSEgai wrote:

Sooner or later one comes to realize that all it takes to become a target of the nerf hammer is popular use. With Delirium core it's set the bar higher than it's ever been before. But the adjustment bureau doesn't factor that in since in order to succeed at that content you're trivializing basically everything else.

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kuciol wrote:

Because power is not the only category of evaluating builds. Nobody cares that there is a build that can do 1,3 bilion dps. The problem starts when you have a 5 milion dps one that plays itself and is easy to replicate.

If I were to take my original hollow palm and estimate the value of his gear based upon it's market value:

1 watcher's eye pride 2impale hits - 13ex
1 6 link 12% increase dex astral - 7ex
1 Garukan's Fligt - 4ex (and depreciated down to 50c by league's end)
1 Cyclopean Coil - 1ex (less for non max stat roll)
1 Dual Res Dex and life Rare - 25c but varies
Flasks were found and self crafted but the lion's roar still had good market value just can't remember
2 Split Personality dex/life 2ex+ each
2 Split Personality dex/str 1ex+ each
2 Fluid Motion - Varies but well under an ex
1 Large Cluster 2 socket deep cuts 100c

Now conservatively that's already over 30ex and had to be upgraded piecemeal as currency became available. That may be "easy" for some but definitely not most. And even in the short window where all flasks were up and at max impale stacks, that duelist champion didn't even break 4.5mil damage per second. Geared on a zerker it could, but at the loss of adrenaline and more deaths.

With that setup I was able to do Sirus A8 and simulacrum deathless, but not reliably. 100% Delirium on guardian maps basically meant death was guaranteed and completion was not.

Still took nerfs to brinkmanship, cyclone, split personality, dual wielding, vaal molten shell.

The concept of scaling physical damage is really straight forward, there's no conversions or elemental penetration to consider. But actually building him up and acquiring the gear took me the better part of 2 months of a 3 month league.

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TheFazzo wrote:

Design mistakes are possible because developers are human.
But I doubt the average forum user has more experience and is able to give significant insight on the matter, especially judging from the arrogant tone of some of them.

Being human means they cannot be infallible and thus player feedback can correct something they miss.

The average forum user is a bit different than the average player.

The average player doesn't even make it to maps because most players never get that far.

The average forum user has typically made it to mapping and cared enough about the game to utilize it's forums. Some have barely touched mapping and others have completed all new content as soon as it was available. But most fall somewhere in the middle of that.

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SeCKSEgai wrote:

Except its not. Players that don't just blindly copy the builds of others end up learning about nuances and mechanical interactions out of sheer necessity. More minds is obviously a boon, but those minds have to be able to offer insight that could be missed. It's not a dig at the devs but explaining the value of player feedback. The dev side doesn't always know better than the player base side, as a certain mobile game announcement clearly showed even a major player in the industry can lose touch with its player base and get it wrong.

Devs have a lot more to consider then players. Of curse devs can be wrong, and are a lot of times but players are also wrong a lot of times. Devs also dont consider some things because they dont care as much for their characters. That was the case with delirium where the end loot was a lot lower at the beggining because devs didnt consider that part as important, but players did. There are a lot of factors.

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SeCKSEgai wrote:

Explain to me automatic. Before poe even existed, people were able to program to the point where hammerdins could teleport quickly through randomized areas, targeting independently and bailing if health dropped below a certain threshold.

When virtually every build revolves building around a primary skill in poe, there isn't a lot of button mashing aside from flasking and buffs as needed. Even the warcries in their current state are utilized as buffs. Hitting a group with contagion before throwing at that essence drain is akin to cursing a group before attacking it.

Fairly automatic means what it is. The player input is minimal, you legit hold RMB the whole map and that build can compete with more complex things like ED for example. You can put things like flicker strike and cyclone in the same basket.

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SeCKSEgai wrote:

And as far as gear independent... what does that really mean? Every build needs to satisfy major resist requirements. Most builds are going to need to supplement an effective health pool, except maybe extreme delving where you may intentionally choose to keep that low. Every build needs to supplement damage regardless.

It means that it will work on whatever you put on your character. Of course there is bare minimum for everything but that just happens spells have that a lot lower and due to how spellslinger works that bar is on the floor. You can simply suplement your dmg with more spells and it will be fine.

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SeCKSEgai wrote:

I'm sure there were "variants", but the old vd relied completely on Poet's Pen, two of them. It couldn't work otherwise because you couldn't guarantee corpse generation, particularly in many boss fights. The unique wand may have enabled the build but you still needed to cover health pool and resists - even summoner necros still have to do that.

Now they made it accessible to everyone, you dont have to rely on RNG. Its more fair but at the same time it became stronger. I dont know what point you are trying to make here.

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SeCKSEgai wrote:

If I were to take my original hollow palm and estimate the value of his gear based upon it's market value:

Now conservatively that's already over 30ex and had to be upgraded piecemeal as currency became available. That may be "easy" for some but definitely not most. And even in the short window where all flasks were up and at max impale stacks, that duelist champion didn't even break 4.5mil damage per second. Geared on a zerker it could, but at the loss of adrenaline and more deaths.

With that setup I was able to do Sirus A8 and simulacrum deathless, but not reliably. 100% Delirium on guardian maps basically meant death was guaranteed and completion was not.

Still took nerfs to brinkmanship, cyclone, split personality, dual wielding, vaal molten shell.

The concept of scaling physical damage is really straight forward, there's no conversions or elemental penetration to consider. But actually building him up and acquiring the gear took me the better part of 2 months of a 3 month league.

Nobody cares about market value either. I dont know what point you are trying to make here either. This league mirror tier gear is free so its pointless to even bring that up. What you need to consider is how accessible gear is (and not how much it costs), how clunky it is, what setup it requires, does it have good clear or is it good for bosses, such things matter. The first build to do endgame bosses for like 10th league in a row is miner. Its cheap, strong AF, safe and upopular. Why? Because its clunky. Why would they nerf something that sees barely any use? They wont buff it either because its already top tier. Thats what you must consider, not just "this strong > nerf, this weak > buff", its not that simple.

well...it works that way doesnt it?
i mean the
strong-> nerf part.
weak stuff just stays weak and with some luck a few skills get a "rework"
but how good this rework actually is can be seen in the melee area of 2 Handed stuff....

now you have to scream trough the whole map to get (((stronk)))
awesome rework!..not

i skipped a league because of real life and now i'm back with this kind of mechanic. i would be "okay" with it if it wasn't so tedious. it's irritating that you can't have sustained higher tier seeds if you are doing it for quite some time. if you are out of higher tier seeds, you must do T1 all over again to sustain seeds. this is too much homework. why not just make a collector for certain tiers instead of planting them manually? i have looked up so much guides on this mechanic that my targeted ads became about actual farming. also, that is a weird map for farming. so many things that could be streamlined but made it way over complicated just to be mind numbingly slow.