Noticed a strong buzz all around promoting pay to win china servers
" I'm not a huge fan of appeals to authority (I prefer "appeals to common sense," which I attempted to do with my "Why else would we care???" comment here: https://www.pathofexile.com/forum/view-thread/2861448/page/3#p23215781), but I do acknowledge that some people need it. I also don't think Wikipedia is any kind of end-all authority, but it is a VERY good compiler of conventional agreement, to the extent that researchers have shown that it compares well with more prescriptive and centralized authorities. As such, it may be useful to you in that role. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free-to-play#Pay-to-win "In general a game is considered pay-to-win when a player can gain any gameplay advantage over his or her non-paying peers." MOST people are referring to the definition as described in Wikipedia when they talk about pay2win. So am I. "Pay to get an advantage over other players who don't pay" is NOT "stretching the definition of p2w," as you accuse. It is, quite literally, a commonly accepted meaning, and arguably the most commonly accepted meaning. Wash your hands, Exile!
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" I dare you to reference Wikipedia for any academic paper. Temporary auction tabs or the loot pet still aren't p2w under that definition. Pay2win quite literally means what it says. You can pay real currency for actual power or ability in a game to gain advantage, power or other in-game benefits that those who do not pay cannot access. It has meant the same thing for years. However, the term has been stretched beyond its original definition to include any number of conveniences that save a person time or effort without giving any actual advantage. I may be wrong about which term is being stretched thin here. It seems that the definition of "advantage" is what is in play here. Just how minor or major must the easing of a pain point be to qualify as an advantage, or p2w, to people like you? Is an XP booster p2w? What about a movement speed boost consumable or a character slot? Surely those are p2w since you can have a second character to farm with and move faster while doing it but people who don't buy those items can't. There are two types of POE players: 1) Those who want to walk uphill both ways barefoot on broken glass wearing a blindfold 2) F*cking noobs I identify as transnational Chinese. May I have access to their QOL features, please? Last edited by Makillda#0245 on May 18, 2020, 11:20:35 AM
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" Context is key. It is significant that you excluded the context of what I wrote while quoting me. Did you notice that I explicitly acknowledged that Wikipedia is not an authority per se (an obviously necessary condition for an academic citation) but rather a consensus-reporting entity? No? Notice it. " Then auction tabs and loot pets provide literally ZERO advantages to paying players. Not "minimal advantages." "Zero advantages." That is what you are saying, if you are being logically consistent. If you think you can defend that, go right ahead, but I assure you that your battle will be uphill. " The key word here is "gameplay." Cosmetic MTXs have zero impact upon gameplay (with some rare exceptions, which I am happy to ignore for the sake of argument); thus they are not pay2win. Similarly, if I can access the XP booster with the same degree of ease a paying player can, then the XP booster is not pay2win. If I can access a movement speed boost consumable which confers gameplay advantages with the same degree of ease a paying player can, then the speed boost consumable is not pay2win. If a paid advantage applies to gameplay, in even the most remote degree, then yes, it is pay2win. This isn't about how "minor" or "major" the easing of a pain point is. This is not a spectrum. It is binary. If no gameplay advantage is conferred, then it is not pay2win. Full stop. If a gameplay advantage is conferred, then it is pay2win. Full stop. That is, as I said, the most commonly accepted definition. Wash your hands, Exile!
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People are really amazing. After No Man's Sky, Diablo Immortal, lootboxes everywhere, Fallout 76 you still think that some game company will copy payed features p2w/pay4advantage (you name it) from chinese version and add them for free to international?
People are really amazing. Biggest compliments for my crafted items - "bs, they must have been RMT'ed" I'm disabled, I have rare case of semperduravera, so I can write things that may look rude, but it is because of disability - I'm forced to tell truth using words you may not like. Last edited by Nomancs#6176 on May 18, 2020, 2:33:04 PM
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That buzzing you hear is just the murder hornets destroying our chief pollinators, nothing to see here.
[19:36]#Mirror_stacking_clown: try smoke ganja every day for 10 years and do memory game
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So because someone has the fastest NVME possible and a 2080 and that lets them complete maps faster, not get slowed down and get more currency/hr that must be pay2win too.
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Special tabs are p2w because I have to manage my currency while other players can just dump all they have in mere seconds and have it all perfectly stacked and sorted.
Extra tabs are p2w because I have to play inventory tetris and carefully consider what things to keep, while other player can have 10 "dump" tabs. Premium tabs are p2w because I have to open my navigator, open a forum post, and type every item with its price, while other payer jsut right click on the item from their tab and put the price. Having an expensive PC is p2w, as I, with my current PC am unable to do fully juiced 100% delirium t16 maps without extreme lag. So guys with 2k€ PC's have a clear GAMEPLAY advantage over me. Can we stop stretching the definition of p2w? The fuck you win with a pet looting for you? Time, you will say. Efficiency. Yeah? How much exactly? Its not that clicking on shit takes much time, its just loathsome having to pick 30 wisdom scrolls, each one unstacked. It doesnt take much time nor effort. Last edited by Charoy#5653 on May 20, 2020, 6:03:12 PM
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" you forgot poop socking, takes alot of cash to buy all those socks |
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[Removed by Support]
This has been debated 398547 times. It ALL boils down to the definition: "Advantage" or "win". People will NEVER agree on these terms, mostly for the sake of their arguments, and not really for the sake of their "stance". I don't care if we call temporary, league-based character inventory "pay-to-win", "pay-for-QoL" or "pay-for-advantage. It's doesn't matter. At all. What matters, is the ethics behind it. Stash tabs? Loot pet? One-time purchases that stick with you for ever. The CN inventory upgrade? You "have to" buy it each league and it's a clear-cut case of something you WILL get so used to, that playing without it will feel really bad. It's ethically bull shit. And when it comes to loot pets? Well, adding loot pets is like treating the symptoms, and not the cause. We shouldn't have to welcome loot pets, because the drop system should be reworked. Bring me some coffee and I'll bring you a smile. Last edited by Scott_GGG#0000 on May 20, 2020, 7:05:21 PM
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Whilst I am sure GGG has an idealistic and pure vision for the game, the fact is bills need to be paid. There are a couple of choices with this,
-charge a fixed price for the core game and charge for each expansion - sell add on features; MTX, stash tabs and the like - rely on donations - shut down development GGG want the game to be free to play. To rely on add ons you have to generate new ones to sell as you can’t keep churning out the same old ones year on year Donations don’t work when you have bills to pay No on wants development shut down Whilst this may be distasteful to some, there has to be an income stream and new products have to be developed, if this looks like pay to win and you don’t like it, come up with some different suggestions |
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