Path of Exile and p2w

That wasn't directed at you, Phrazz.
I don't agree with pretty much anything you wrote, but it's obvious you are putting great efforts into trying to explain your truth and point of view.

I believe we are both fans of this game.

The post was for all those copy-pasted "hurr durr what u win?" comments I've seen a thousand times before. Each time coming from someone whose account becomes inactive a month afterwards, or someone who gets caught severely violating ToS, banned, and rage quits while posting some violent caps-locked "this game is shit! fuck you GGG!" thread from an alt account.

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johnKeys wrote:

At this point in time I don't think you can play without buying tabs.

Back in Beta and early 1.x-2.x sure. Heck I was playing with 4 tabs for almost 4 years, in Standard for f* sake.
Torture, but doable.

Now there's just so much crap it's hard to finish a League without a couple extra, quad or specialized tabs.
And if you like to have anything useful at all, you gotta whip out your credit card.

Edited for more accuracy.

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jtggm1985 wrote:

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Mythreindeer wrote:

Why should it make you uncomfortable? If you can afford a computer and an ISP on which to play this game then you should be able to afford $30 of stash tabs. Is that asking too much for an otherwise completely free game? I don't think so. Call it p2w if you want, I don't think so, but whatever.

I have tabs currently, but I can tell you right now both I and a few of my friends who have computers and internet couldn't afford 30 dollars for stash tabs.

Do you feel your current financial shortcomings entitle you to more free storage space? Do you feel because you cannot afford stash tabs that having to buy them makes PoE p2w?

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Mythreindeer wrote:

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jtggm1985 wrote:

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Mythreindeer wrote:

Why should it make you uncomfortable? If you can afford a computer and an ISP on which to play this game then you should be able to afford $30 of stash tabs. Is that asking too much for an otherwise completely free game? I don't think so. Call it p2w if you want, I don't think so, but whatever.

I have tabs currently, but I can tell you right now both I and a few of my friends who have computers and internet couldn't afford 30 dollars for stash tabs.

Do you feel your current financial shortcomings entitle you to more free storage space? Do you feel because you cannot afford stash tabs that having to buy them makes PoE p2w?

I do not feel my financial situation entitles me to anything but the house internet and food I pay for, but yes stash tabs are pay to win, because they offer you several advantages, like easier trade, more storage and easier organization. And this is coming from someone who's bought stash tabs in the past, including all the specialized ones and 2 quads.

I have tabs currently, but I can tell you right now both I and a few of my friends who have computers and internet couldn't afford 30 dollars for stash tabs.[/quote]

Do you feel your current financial shortcomings entitle you to more free storage space? Do you feel because you cannot afford stash tabs that having to buy them makes PoE p2w?[/quote]

I do not feel my financial situation entitles me to anything but the house internet and food I pay for, but yes stash tabs are pay to win, because they offer you several advantages, like easier trade, more storage and easier organization. And this is coming from someone who's bought stash tabs in the past, including all the specialized ones and 2 quads.[/quote]

Well you've paid your dues and fortunately do not need to buy anything additional to enjoy the game. Personally, I don't think it's p2w, but I can allow for multiple definitions of the term and bid you good day.

And to you as well.

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Phrazz wrote:

It was a stupid question, so I answered it half-arsed.

I understand now. You didn't understand his point (or preferred not to acknowledge it for tactical reasons) and therefore chose to take the question literally and thus call it "stupid."

You can gather from his response that it wasn't a very effective tactic.

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Phrazz wrote:

By all means, let's add another subjective element to the list for people to interpret.

Is the sentence, "GGG doesn't intend for the game to be played in its entirety with only four stash tabs" really so difficult for you (or others) to interpret?

Or, for that matter, the sentence, "Having more than four basic stash tabs provides a gameplay advantage?"

Subjective? Sure they are. But they are hardly the super-subjective and controversial statements that GGG apologists characterize them to be.

On the contrary, these are extraordinarily reasonable claims to make, in my opinion.

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Mythreindeer wrote:

Do you feel because you cannot afford stash tabs that having to buy them makes PoE p2w?

(Emphasis mine.)

Do you feel that stash tabs have to be bought but the fact that they are fairly priced makes PoE not p2w?

That's not a rhetorical question, by the way. I think it gets at the crux of why so many people take offense at the p2w label.

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gibbousmoon wrote:

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Mythreindeer wrote:

Do you feel because you cannot afford stash tabs that having to buy them makes PoE p2w?

(Emphasis mine.)

Do you feel that stash tabs have to be bought but the fact that they are fairly priced makes PoE not p2w?

That's not a rhetorical question, by the way. I think it gets at the crux of why so many people take offense at the p2w label.

I think you can play the game without buying stash tabs but it is one holy hell of a PITA to do so. I do think stash tabs are reasonably priced and I think that makes it much less painful, but nonetheless, and I think nubatron said it earlier, stash tabs are more of a pay-to-play situation as opposed to p2w. I also think that most jurisdictions would make that distinction as well when crafting legislation though of course that would not define our terms in relation to our philosophical discussion on "p2w."

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johnKeys wrote:

That wasn't directed at you, Phrazz.

I got that. I'm just having huge problems with people having to stereotype other people into certain "negative loaded roles" in debates, or people debating the participants rather than the case in hand. It's very bad for any debate/discussion.

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Mythreindeer wrote:

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gibbousmoon wrote:

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Mythreindeer wrote:

Do you feel because you cannot afford stash tabs that having to buy them makes PoE p2w?

(Emphasis mine.)

Do you feel that stash tabs have to be bought but the fact that they are fairly priced makes PoE not p2w?

That's not a rhetorical question, by the way. I think it gets at the crux of why so many people take offense at the p2w label.

I think you can play the game without buying stash tabs but it is one holy hell of a PITA to do so. I do think stash tabs are reasonably priced and I think that makes it much less painful, but nonetheless, and I think nubatron said it earlier, stash tabs are more of a pay-to-play situation as opposed to p2w. I also think that most jurisdictions would make that distinction as well when crafting legislation though of course that would not define our terms in relation to our philosophical discussion on "p2w."

Then we agree.

And this may give you an insight into why many people label stash tabs p2w despite sharing the perspective you just described. After all, pressuring players to pay in order to remove pain points is one of the most common business tactics among developers of pay2win games.

And though PoE may be "pay2win lite," the important distinction for many is not "reasonable vs. unreasonable p2w" but rather "p2w vs. not-p2w." The most likely reason for this is GGG's own representation of the game as

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GGG wrote:

completely free and will never be "pay to win".

Like I said, it gets at the crux of most of these arguments: Differing priorities among players.