EA killed for "Surprise Mechanics", TencentGGG slides on "Mystery Box". How?

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DarthSki44 wrote:

How does the gambling with real money process outcomes change with the contents of the box?

Either its gambling for the prize or it isnt, regardless of the actual virtual "worth" of the prize.

So let's say one of the box contents was a premium stash tab, now you have an issue? If so then you truly have blown my mind.

All prizes have zero value, so there is no variance in the value of the box contents. I'm fine with people spending as much money as they want since there is no uncertainty at all in the value or gameplay impact they will receive.

With regards to your stash tab question, I would not be happy with it because they do have an impact on gameplay. The fact that GGG sells them at all is grey area in the first place (regarding their promise not to be pay to win) IMO but that's a different debate.

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DarthSki44 wrote:

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Miská wrote:

People have explained to you dozens of times now why it isn't the same thing. There is also a big difference between protecting consumers and limiting consumers to save a few. Should we stop driving because a few people can't control themselves? regulate eating food because certain people can't control themselves? At what point do we reach the limit in controlling everyone around us?

These are COSMETIC Mtx that have ZERO influence on your ingame stats. If you can't control yourself buying these, you SHOULDN'T be on the internet PERIOD. It's really that simple.

Again cosmetic vs boost (p2w) are totally irrelevant. This isnt hard to understand. You are flatly wrong here.

GGG takes real money, gives you ingame currency which cannot be redeemed or traded, and then you roll the slot machine.

There are weighted rolls designed to "fail" through duplictaes and encourage additional rolls.

Its PREADATORY and has nothing to do with in-game performance.

These mystery boxes are bad all the way around, and I have given numerous suggestions on how to make them at the very least, tolerable.

Who says it's irrelevant? You? Because I don't think it's irrelevant at all. THere is a massive and undeniable difference between selling mystery boxes that contain very specific mtx and selling boxes that contain ingame benefits.

But still though, aslong as you keep calling them predatory this thread is going nowhere. You see what you get. If you own a CC you should be able to understand why lootboxes are dirtcheap (because dupes exist and you might not get what you want right away)

I'll say this again and again. There are MUCH worse things on the internet if you can't control yourself buying very specific mtx boxes. Much much worse things.

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DurianMcgregor wrote:

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DarthSki44 wrote:

How does the gambling with real money process outcomes change with the contents of the box?

Either its gambling for the prize or it isnt, regardless of the actual virtual "worth" of the prize.

So let's say one of the box contents was a premium stash tab, now you have an issue? If so then you truly have blown my mind.

All prizes have zero value, so there is no variance in the value of the box contents. I'm fine with people spending as much money as they want since there is no uncertainty at all in the value or gameplay impact they will receive.

With regards to your stash tab question, I would not be happy with it because they do have an impact on gameplay. The fact that GGG sells them at all is grey area in the first place (regarding their promise not to be pay to win) IMO but that's a different debate.

Of course it's a different debate, and thats my point.

This isnt a PoE is P2W debate, its whether or not GGG mystery box is unethical and preys on gambling urges. (Like many other companies loot boxes that get panned)

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Miská wrote:

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DarthSki44 wrote:

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Miská wrote:

People have explained to you dozens of times now why it isn't the same thing. There is also a big difference between protecting consumers and limiting consumers to save a few. Should we stop driving because a few people can't control themselves? regulate eating food because certain people can't control themselves? At what point do we reach the limit in controlling everyone around us?

These are COSMETIC Mtx that have ZERO influence on your ingame stats. If you can't control yourself buying these, you SHOULDN'T be on the internet PERIOD. It's really that simple.

Again cosmetic vs boost (p2w) are totally irrelevant. This isnt hard to understand. You are flatly wrong here.

GGG takes real money, gives you ingame currency which cannot be redeemed or traded, and then you roll the slot machine.

There are weighted rolls designed to "fail" through duplictaes and encourage additional rolls.

Its PREADATORY and has nothing to do with in-game performance.

These mystery boxes are bad all the way around, and I have given numerous suggestions on how to make them at the very least, tolerable.

Who says it's irrelevant? You? Because I don't think it's irrelevant at all. THere is a massive and undeniable difference between selling mystery boxes that contain very specific mtx and selling boxes that contain ingame benefits.

But still though, aslong as you keep calling them predatory this thread is going nowhere. You see what you get. If you own a CC you should be able to understand why lootboxes are dirtcheap (because dupes exist and you might not get what you want right away)

I'll say this again and again. There are MUCH worse things on the internet if you can't control yourself buying very specific mtx boxes. Much much worse things.

This is totally, 100%, false.

It doesnt suddenly become gambling just because the prize is an ingame boost. The algorithms are the same regardless.

If GGG sold boosts in its mtx shop, that's a P2W debate we could have, and that's totally legitimate.

However that isnt what this is. The boxes are setup to gamble and loose (percentage wise theough duplicates), and that doesn't change by what's offered in the actual box iself.

You are conflating two things that are not related. P2W and gambling loot boxes are not the same argument.

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DarthSki44 wrote:

Of course it's a different debate, and thats my point.

This isnt a PoE is P2W debate, its whether or not GGG mystery box is unethical and preys on gambling urges. (Like many other companies loot boxes that get panned)

Are any of the mystery box items limited edition or unavailable at the shop at a later time? If so I would agree it's at least a little bit questionable ethically, but again it's not like any of the items have value anyway so I'm not going to be mad about it. I basically see it as an opportunity for the company to charge two diffferent prices for the same thing: mystery box price for people who care about getting the item now or want the random element, and regular price (I don't know if this would be more or less) for people who are OK with waiting.

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DarthSki44 wrote:

Why do people have issue with EA loot boxes and not GGG? You just "feel" differently?

It's been said several times in this thread - and all other threads about the same subject.

- Most EA games are AAA priced. Adding additional "encouraged" payment walls on top of that may be seen as a dick move.

- Everything in GGG's Mystery Boxes WILL be available for sale later on.

- Path of Exile are being marketed as "mature", towards an adult audience. And as you (may?) know, adults are expected to make their own choices in life.

- Path of Exile is F2P. It NEEDS elements that encourages you to spend money to "survive".

- Mystery Boxes are strictly cosmetics. I really don't think I needed to point this out, but what the hell.

That said, I somewhat agree with you. The whole concept of these "boxes" are close to predatory. But with all my previous points in mind, I'll let them slide as a fairly bright gray area.

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DurianMcgregor wrote:

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DarthSki44 wrote:

Of course it's a different debate, and thats my point.

This isnt a PoE is P2W debate, its whether or not GGG mystery box is unethical and preys on gambling urges. (Like many other companies loot boxes that get panned)

Are any of the mystery box items limited edition or unavailable at the shop at a later time? If so I would agree it's at least a little bit questionable ethically, but again it's not like any of the items have value anyway so I'm not going to be mad about it. I basically see it as an opportunity for the company to charge two diffferent prices for the same thing: mystery box price for people who care about getting the item now or want the random element, and regular price (I don't know if this would be more or less) for people who are OK with waiting.

This is closer to what I'm asking to improve the optics and get them to be more ethical.

Make the chances of what you obtain equal, provide duplicate protection, and if its possible add a buyout for the entire box ($200-250)

That way it isnt so much about trying to grab for as much money as possible through gambling, or paying significantly more by waiting until it arrives in the cash shop.

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DarthSki44 wrote:

This is totally, 100%, false.

It doesnt suddenly become gambling just because the prize is an ingame boost. The algorithms are the same regardless.

If GGG sold boosts in its mtx shop, that's a P2W debate we could have, and that's totally legitimate.

However that isnt what this is. The boxes are setup to gamble and loose (percentage wise theough duplicates), and that doesn't change by what's offered in the actual box iself.

You are conflating two things that are not related. P2W and gambling loot boxes are not the same argument.

No, you are wrong. You are the one mixing things up not me. You ask why it's different, I tell you why it's different. I never claimed it wasn't gambling. I never said the core of both practices are different. But they are not the same.

Nobody needs to buy these boxes to compete ingame. If you don't understand that difference I don't know what to say. AGAIN, I am answering your own topic.

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DarthSki44 wrote:

[

This is closer to what I'm asking to improve the optics and get them to be more ethical.

Make the chances of what you obtain equal, provide duplicate protection, and if its possible add a buyout for the entire box ($200-250)

That way it isnt so much about trying to grab for as much money as possible through gambling, or paying significantly more by waiting until it arrives in the cash shop.

This reply kinda sums up the quality of this topic. This guy actually thinks they can do all that, and keep prices the same. You are living in a fairytale land my friend. I'm honestly getting a bit tired of young folks believing that companies ( that need to pay wages and have costs) should pretty much pay them to play their game. Out of thin air.

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Miská wrote:

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DarthSki44 wrote:

This is totally, 100%, false.

It doesnt suddenly become gambling just because the prize is an ingame boost. The algorithms are the same regardless.

If GGG sold boosts in its mtx shop, that's a P2W debate we could have, and that's totally legitimate.

However that isnt what this is. The boxes are setup to gamble and loose (percentage wise theough duplicates), and that doesn't change by what's offered in the actual box iself.

You are conflating two things that are not related. P2W and gambling loot boxes are not the same argument.

No, you are wrong. You are the one mixing things up not me. You ask why it's different, I tell you why it's different. I never claimed it wasn't gambling. I never said the core of both practices are different. But they are not the same.

Nobody needs to buy these boxes to compete ingame. If you don't understand that difference I don't know what to say. AGAIN, I am answering your own topic.

Ummm...ok

If we agree its gambling then I'm fine. I never said anything about competition. I had an issue with grabbing real world money, that's all.

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Miská wrote:

This reply kinda sums up the quality of this topic. This guy actually thinks they can do all that, and keep prices the same. You are living in a fairytale land my friend. I'm honestly getting a bit tired of young folks believing that companies ( that need to pay wages and have costs) should pretty much pay them to play their game. Out of thin air.

Its unfortunate if you actually believe that. Companies are more than capable of having monetization strategies that are not rooted in exploitation or predatory practice.

GGG didnt always have loot boxes, and I have purchased many supporter packs, stash tabs, mtx's, ect...

I have spent thousands over the years, and haven't really felt bad about it, because I believed I was supporting an ethical company that needed it to continue doing what they were doing.

I hate the loot box era in gaming. It's not that I dont have the money, I do, but it's so damn shady. That fact that it's a big money maker is equal parts sad and frustrating.

Bottom line is GGG doesnt have to operate like this, and they have viable options (obviously imo)

The entire point of the topic is for debate. Its clear you dont see it this way, and are in favor, or at least dont mind, loot boxes. I just dont see it that way. Thanks for the debate, we just are on opposite sides it appears.

Edit: spelling and grammar, phone autocorrect is OP