CI and stun

Hi

CI has always been about getting the best equipment and seems to remain ever the same...

Up the chaos resist nodes and the move some to the middle, why the reason to keep most the chaos resist nodes by CI, an ability that makes your character immune to chaos, makes no sense.

CI sucks unless you got the items even then seems like monsters cut through it like butter, seriously how many CI builds always use the unique Eye Amulet or dream fragments?Silly GGG not looking at the items players tend to use on their CI builds.

If anything this game needs to lessen the minuses to the resists, lower damage and thus allow more interesting builds besides having to spend like 70% of your characters time getting life/es nodes and most of your equipment to roll triple/double resists.

Being a hardcore gamer is one thing but having fun seems to be another thing altogether with some of the choices a player is forced to make in this game now...

cheers

"

Srafty wrote:

Pros of CI
1. immune to chaos dmg. "a damage type that in end game can be entirely avoided". (did i miss anything?) im pretty sure this is the ONE and the ONLY real reason to take CI.

Cons of CI
1. you lose access to your health pool and along with it the massive benifits flasks provide.
2. you lose all armor and eva due to gearing requirements,
3. you lose massive stats or passives just to get back to even ground with elemental status effect vs life users, if not you are prone to having elemental ailment stacked upone you.

if u disagree with the above pros and cons Please make a valid argument in which u state why.

You can take CI for blood rage, melee damage on full life, chaos immunity, now you can even take it to get more energy shield, and you can do so without any drawbacks if you build correctly. For me this involved getting 1 ring that cost me only 3 Exalted orbs:

speccing into Unwavering Stance, and speccing into 55% chance to avoid shock/35% chance to avoid Chilled. I could care less about getting ignited, getting punctured hurts only if you're stupid enough to move when you have it, and everything else I've pretty much got covered. I've face tanked pretty much everything up to 75 maps and I don't even have good gear.

This isn't even top-end hybrid gear and it gives me a total of 15k armour and 5.4k ES. I've seen 700 ES on a hybrid chest before. Using this gear I would have over 7k ES after I finished getting all the ES nodes. I know a few people with better hybrid gear that hit up over 9k ES and still have acceptable armour. Considering you can get over 300%+ increased ES and 20% More ES while getting everything you need to avoid status ailments and stun, I don't see why people have so much beef with CI.


If you rely on flasks to keep you alive instead of leech/regen you'll probably end up dead. You should only really have to use life flasks in emergencies. I don't even understand why you're using flasks to compare CI to life. Going by your logic I have an extra 4k effective life as Vaal Pact with Ghost Reaver gives me back 20%( a little over 1k) of my maximum ES every hit and that happens over 4 times a second. I don't miss either due to Resolute Technique. Personally I'd rather use these than have life flasks anyway:


For stats, I have 200 int, 300 str, and 370 dex. If that's not "enough" to you I don't know what you're striving for.

As a side note, if you spec into the passive tree for damage > survivability and then complain you can't survive you should be slapped a few times.

"

Ridiem wrote:

insert quote here

It seems you decided to totally ignore that we\i have already determined that the use of CI is limited to end game and even then it is more gear dependent to make it viable over health builds.

the reply u have quoted me on is definitely directed more towards "pre gear pre end game" thus i can feel that you have quoted me out of context considering where this thread has progressed to, just so u could make a point that i have already agreed to.

also to add that my perspective comes from playing on HC so all the gear u have linked is actually better than you might think. as aquiring gear rolled specifically for a CI build is rather hard within the HC league, this may or may not change as time passes. but in default it will get easier and easier... just to get that gear in HC takes weeks of farming and thats after u have been forced to level as a health build due to CI not being viable before this point. so any currency \ farming i have done until now was only in preparation and is almost guaranteed to be useless when making the switch to CI

IF this remains the case then CI is definitely a harder build to create and should be equal to or better than a health build... not sub par.

"

Mark_GGG wrote:

"

Velrik wrote:

when u have 1 hp with CI EVERYTHING stuns you.

This is not true.
CI calculates stun, and elemental status ailments, based on the 'actual' life value you would have, ignoring CI's setting it to one. These things never use 1 life in these calculations.

Taking CI does not in any way make you more vulnerable to stuns or elemental status ailments than the same build would be without CI.

I can't believe I just read that... I really wish I had that Nic Cage "You Don't Say" .gif on hand.

But let's look at this winner of a line...

"

Mark_GGG wrote:

Taking CI does not in any way make you more vulnerable to stuns or elemental status ailments than the same build would be without CI.

Seriously?

Is this why this game is how it is? Because of "logical" responses like that?

No shit... Because if they didn't take CI they would have HP nodes out the ass.

You're really gonna tell us it's "ok" because if some idiot built a CI character but didn't take CI, he'd get stunned just as much?

That's just pure stupidity...

No wonder we're stuck with things like a piss poor armor system(excuse: it's realistic like real life), or the stupid ass evasion system(excuse: we wanted a less RNG, RNG mechanic), or the nonstop rampant desyncs(excuse: none, because they just ignore everyone's posts or feedback for the last 2.5 years).

Can't forget the last big winner from these "logical" people...

Cyclone, we all told you it would desync just from watching the video preview... Your reponse, "it won't desync because it ignores collision".

Result... It desyncs like high hell, probably second to WB in frequency.

So we can infer from that one of the following... You don't test things very well, you don't have a clue why your game is desyncing, you rush things that aren't ready(example CB->OB) or quite possibly all of the above.

I can only imagine the response to that one... Hopefully it's a game winner like this CI response.

Every CI build that not speced to unwavering stance should have this amulet.

"

Mark_GGG wrote:

"

Velrik wrote:

when u have 1 hp with CI EVERYTHING stuns you.

This is not true.
CI calculates stun, and elemental status ailments, based on the 'actual' life value you would have, ignoring CI's setting it to one. These things never use 1 life in these calculations.

Taking CI does not in any way make you more vulnerable to stuns or elemental status ailments than the same build would be without CI.

This really should be changed because it seems to be causing a lot of angst.

Ailments and stun chance should be calculated using the displayed HP pool, (ie. 1 for CI users), so that it remains consistent with life builds and players expectations.

Using the hidden max life value for calculations is a kind of exploit in that allows CI users to add to their "actual" life value, (through items and/or passives), and gain a higher resistance to stun and status ailments than they really should have.

:p

"

BazzV5 wrote:

"

Mark_GGG wrote:

"

Velrik wrote:

when u have 1 hp with CI EVERYTHING stuns you.

This is not true.
CI calculates stun, and elemental status ailments, based on the 'actual' life value you would have, ignoring CI's setting it to one. These things never use 1 life in these calculations.

Taking CI does not in any way make you more vulnerable to stuns or elemental status ailments than the same build would be without CI.

This really should be changed because it seems to be causing a lot of angst.

Ailments and stun chance should be calculated using the displayed HP pool, (ie. 1 for CI users), so that it remains consistent with life builds and players expectations.

Using the hidden max life value for calculations is a kind of exploit in that allows CI users to add to their "actual" life value, (through items and/or passives), and gain a higher resistance to stun and status ailments than they really should have.

:p

\
Its not an exploit because there is a direct tradeoff between ES and Life

If you are forgoing ES for life (as a CI), then although you might be (realistically slightly) more resistant to stun/status ailments, you will die a hell of a lot faster. This isn't really a proper choice that CI users have

"

deteego wrote:

Its not an exploit because there is a direct tradeoff between ES and Life

If you are forgoing ES for life (as a CI), then although you might be (realistically slightly) more resistant to stun/status ailments, you will die a hell of a lot faster. This isn't really a proper choice that CI users have

You are being a silly billy aren't you!!

Note the tongue at the end of my earlier reply.

Just pointing out that it could be a lot worse than it currently is.

"

BazzV5 wrote:

"

deteego wrote:

Its not an exploit because there is a direct tradeoff between ES and Life

If you are forgoing ES for life (as a CI), then although you might be (realistically slightly) more resistant to stun/status ailments, you will die a hell of a lot faster. This isn't really a proper choice that CI users have

You are being a silly billy aren't you!!

Note the tongue at the end of my earlier reply.

Just pointing out that it could be a lot worse than it currently is.

Dont expect him to detect as complex human concept as sarcasm, he is a refutebot, like almost everybody on this fucking forum. They dont't want to comprehend or discuss a point or an idea, they want to refute the few sentences they understand.

"

Srafty wrote:

you seem to miss the point that any of these solutions require the use of passives to obtain, thus u never reach that "large" ES threshold that u believe to be so OP compared to life. if you dont spend the passives then the result is loss of extreme stats. for example but not limited to: 100% mana regen with a buttload of resists

I didn't say CI was OP. And your argument doesn't make sense when you consider that a max life build also has to spend a ton of passive points to reach a high life total. You need at least 20 max life nodes if you want to have enough life to survive at high level.

"

Srafty wrote:

Yes but you skip the point that we lose the option of 100% increased armor on all our granites, if we choose this option we are forced to use dispel mods instead.. and hey my flask ran dry now im fucked!
in the end every option that makes CI viable is at a cost and CI has to many downsides that one must account for to obtain immune to chaos. which in its self is only viable in very few situations.

Wait, I thought you said previously in this thread that to go with CI you have to give up ALL armor and evasion. Now you mention using granite flasks and complain that you can't use Iron Skin flasks and can only use 3-4 regular granites instead. My god.. I wish I had 4 extra flask slots to fill up with granite flasks as a max life build. You should be happy that you can even run with all that armor as someone who also gets tons of ES.

"

Srafty wrote:

a fast regen survival pool after not being hit for 6 seconds isnt exactly useful in most of situations and is in no way EHP. The majority of the times you will actually take dmg is due to Fast moving creatures or blink strike rares that do massive dmg to a witch each hit!!. how do u propose i avoid being hit for long enough for this regen to take place when i cannot get any distance on the attacking creatures long enough to recharge this OP pool of ES

Traditionally, CI builds are designed for ranged builds. As a ranged attacker, you shouldn't have much trouble avoiding being hit for 6 seconds (or 3-4 seconds if you invest in energy shield cooldown recovery nodes) to let your shield start to regen. If you do a melee build with CI, then you can use Ghost Reaver to get around the regen delay issue.

And if you are going to count life regen and life flasks as EHP, why are you refusing to count Energy Shield regen (which is much faster than life regen) as EHP too?? Seems like a really flawed way too look at it.

"

Srafty wrote:

Leach is our only combat viable regen but the moment we stop casting we are dead, yet another reason why the loss of flasks is so huge. health flasks alone double your EHP and its not like every other build out there cant use leach.

It's spelled Leech. And that is an extreme exaggeration to claim that the second you stop casting you die. If you can't survive more than a second with 9,000 EHP.. you're doing something wrong.

"

Srafty wrote:

the fact remains, 10k ES cannot compare to 5k Health. the ONLY situation ES wins out in is if something would have 1 shot crit you.

Dont forget EVERYONE has at leased some ES thus everyone has the 50% chance to avoid a stun until they start to take damage.

10k EHP that regens faster, and with 3-4 granite flasks so that you don't even need armor doesn't compare with 5k EHP that regens slower and requires you to fill up flask slots with life flasks? If you don't see the advantages of CI even after I've spelled them out for you, then I don't really know what else to explain to you.

Secondly, you are completely wrong in your statement "EVERYONE has at least some ES". Energy Shield is not like Evasion. You don't get some just for having Intelligence. You only get some Energy Shield if you are wearing Energy Shield gear, period.

"

Srafty wrote:

What exactly is the main drawback? obviously there is more than one. also before CI got nerfed (i hear it started with something like 100%+ es) i dare say people simply didnt have gear and choose to take the fast track, choosing to ignore EHP simply because they where scared of being 1 shot by vaal. (this happened very much the same in diablo3 upon launch, everyone stacked massive health to find at harder content it actually was not the best option - its just the same for ES with no EHP)

Vaal didn't even exist back then, and it was 80% more energy shield for CI users. People were running around with 14k energy shield, and all energy shield cooldown recovery nodes were 15% instead of 10%. This meant you could bring down the recovery time to about 3 seconds easily. Even melee users would spec CI because it was just vastly superior to life EVEN WITH the weakness of stun/freeze/ignite duration being determined by what your max life would have been without CI.

That's the thing about this. People on the forums have recently been RAGING about the stun/freeze/ignite duration with CI and making it sound like CI is useless as long as it has that drawback. Yet even with that drawback, it was incredibly useful in the past simply because the EHP you could reach was higher.

"

Srafty wrote:

I still cannot agree that the down sides to CI are justified vs the gains. especially since the gains are very limited.

Then don't take CI! If you don't see the advantages, don't bother with CI. I SEE the advantages and am working on a melee shadow using CI and Ghost Reaver. I plan to take Crystal Skin and a few of the nodes behind it to deal with the downsides of CI. I will probably struggle at times due to being a melee CI user, but I'm willing to accept that for the huge gains to EHP I will have. I will also gain the benefit of running Blood Rage without paying the chaos dmg cost of it. Plus I will be able to run multiple granite flasks. Also, I will be able to use "melee dmg on full life" support gems and always get the dmg boost. Finally, if I make it to end-game I will be able to run any map that has chaos dmg on it and get free quantity boosts without taking any chaos dmg.

If you don't think CI is worth it, don't take CI. It's that simple.