CI and stun

"

Axebane wrote:

Why is it stupid for something powerful to have a drawback?

If stun/freeze/shock duration were calculated off max ES instead of max life, a huge imbalance would be created. Why would anyone spec into life nodes if they could just spec into ES + CI and have twice as much effective life.

Doesn't anyone get that?? People are raging and demanding GGG change this, and even going so far as to call it a "stupid mechanic" when it is literally the only real drawback remaining for CI users. Use some common sense here folks. Balance cannot be achieved if the most powerful option has no real drawbacks.

You dont see that being required to spend over 20 (min) passives as a witch to get unwavering stance a drawback? (i use witch as an example because ALL ES gear is INT)
If one doesnt spend said passive points or more then they are forced to use "Multiple" low level uniques to obtain the same effect. resulting in massive stat loss from each unique used.

then u go on to talk about how ES would have twice asmuch EHP if stun was calculated from it?!
Sorry totally disagree and think you to be utterly wrong about ES having any EHP. CI builds have NO EHP the base pool you see is everything you have (with exception to leach more passive points to use). The way ES is geared to achieve a large ES pool removes all armor and eva. you lose the use flasks and any life u would of had without CI (even 1k HP with flasks is more like 3k EHP)


Pros of CI
1. immune to chaos dmg. "a damage type that in end game can be entirely avoided". (did i miss anything?) im pretty sure this is the ONE and the ONLY real reason to take CI.

Cons of CI
1. you lose access to your health pool and along with it the massive benifits flasks provide.
2. you lose all armor and eva due to gearing requirements,
3. you lose massive stats or passives just to get back to even ground with elemental status effect vs life users, if not you are prone to having elemental ailment stacked upone you.

if u disagree with the above pros and cons Please make a valid argument in which u state why.


it seems that one of the main arguments for keeping CI shit is "but with CI you get 10k ES and life builds only get 7k health"... wait lets bump that ES figure upto 12k ES vs 6k HP to many people simply look at what they see and go OMG 12k EHP...

i argue that the simple use of a flask on 1k Health effectively turns that health into 2k+ essentially doubling the players EHP. ontop of this you can use upto 5 flasks at once for an insane life Regen rate, exponentially increasing the players EHP... so if ES users lose the uses of flasks including secondary effects i say when it comes to EHP CI vs HP is 1/2 the EHP or less. and that's only based on flasks ...O.O... don't forget ES gear also has NO EVA or ARMOR, and if u chooses to use hybrid gear that magic 12k ES turns into 6k ES...

i Say the loss of the Health pool + flask use combined is more than enough of a downside to CI... why does it also require the above Cons added to that.

"

Srafty wrote:

You dont see that being required to spend over 20 (min) passives as a witch to get unwavering stance a drawback? (i use witch as an example because ALL ES gear is INT)
If one doesnt spend said passive points or more then they are forced to use "Multiple" low level uniques to obtain the same effect. resulting in massive stat loss from each unique used.

The only thing Unwavering does is make you immune to stun. Having at least 1 energy shield automatically grants you a 50% chance to avoid being stunned. No one forces you to use uniques. There is a whole cluster of Passive nodes south of CI that can grant a large chance to avoid being frozen/shocked/ignited. There are also flasks that remove the freeze/chill effect and flasks that remove the ignited effect. The game does give you multiple ways to deal with the drawbacks of CI. No one in their right mind takes Unwavering Stance as a Witch.

"

Srafty wrote:

then u go on to talk about how ES would have twice asmuch EHP if stun was calculated from it?!
Sorry totally disagree and think you to be utterly wrong about ES having any EHP. CI builds have NO EHP the base pool you see is everything you have (with exception to leach more passive points to use). The way ES is geared to achieve a large ES pool removes all armor and eva. you lose the use flasks and any life u would of had without CI (even 1k HP with flasks is more like 3k EHP)

EHP stands for "effective hit points". That's what ES is. It's basically life that recharges much faster than actual life does. (once the recovery delay has passed at least, which you can mostly bypass with 1 passive point: Ghost Reaver) I wasn't saying that you would end up with twice as much ES if stun duration was calculated from max ES. I was saying that you ALREADY can get twice as much EHP by using CI as you can by using max life nodes. A build that focuses on max life will have about 3000-4000 life by lvl 70. A build that focuses on ES + CI will have about 8000-9000 ES by lvl 70.

"

Srafty wrote:

i Say the loss of the Health pool + flask use combined is more than enough of a downside to CI... why does it also require the above Cons added to that.

In reality, not being able to use life flasks is drastically overshadowed by the advantage you gain from having all those extra flask slots. Instead of having 3 life flasks and 2 mana flasks, you can have 3 granite flasks and 2 mana flasks. Hey, now you can have tons of armor without even wearing armor gear. Really big drawback, right?

I stand by what I said before: It makes no sense from a game balance perspective to remove the main drawback of CI without nerfing it's other properties. We would be right back to the situation PoE was in about a year ago: CI was so powerful that almost everyone used it. Melee, Ranged, Spells, it didn't matter. CI was the superior choice for nearly every build in the game. It was just plain silly. And back then the stun/freeze/shock duration was calculated the same way as it is now...

"

Grildrak wrote:

You missed the "I like it when" part of my post. Because I do like it when games forces you to think, noting incorrect about that. I didn't say this game actually forces you to think a lot when playing (build planing is not playing).

Thing is, you can't really do that with an Diablo like ARPG. Especially one that use a Diablo 2 as a base.

"

Nagisawa wrote:

"

Grildrak wrote:

You missed the "I like it when" part of my post. Because I do like it when games forces you to think, noting incorrect about that. I didn't say this game actually forces you to think a lot when playing (build planing is not playing).

Thing is, you can't really do that with an Diablo like ARPG. Especially one that use a Diablo 2 as a base.

Sometimes, it's best to leave the past behind. Yes, thank you D2 for the inspiration, it's 2013 however, let's look forward and move on, instead of constantly drooling for gaming moments from 15 yrs ago.

PoE should find its own identity and break away from this Diablo-clone identification as soon as possible.

"

Axebane wrote:

The only thing Unwavering does is make you immune to stun. Having at least 1 energy shield automatically grants you a 50% chance to avoid being stunned. No one forces you to use uniques. There is a whole cluster of Passive nodes south of CI that can grant a large chance to avoid being frozen/shocked/ignited.

you seem to miss the point that any of these solutions require the use of passives to obtain, thus u never reach that "large" ES threshold that u believe to be so OP compared to life. if you dont spend the passives then the result is loss of extreme stats. for example but not limited to: 100% mana regen with a buttload of resists

"

Axebane wrote:

There are also flasks that remove the freeze/chill effect and flasks that remove the ignited effect. The game does give you multiple ways to deal with the drawbacks of CI. No one in their right mind takes Unwavering Stance as a Witch.

Yes but you skip the point that we lose the option of 100% increased armor on all our granites, if we choose this option we are forced to use dispel mods instead.. and hey my flask ran dry now im fucked!
in the end every option that makes CI viable is at a cost and CI has to many downsides that one must account for to obtain immune to chaos. which in its self is only viable in very few situations.

"

Axebane wrote:

EHP stands for "effective hit points". That's what ES is. It's basically life that recharges much faster than actual life does. (once the recovery delay has passed at least, which you can mostly bypass with 1 passive point: Ghost Reaver) I wasn't saying that you would end up with twice as much ES if stun duration was calculated from max ES. I was saying that you ALREADY can get twice as much EHP by using CI as you can by using max life nodes. A build that focuses on max life will have about 3000-4000 life by lvl 70. A build that focuses on ES + CI will have about 8000-9000 ES by lvl 70.

^ oh look we agree on something.. well at-leased that part of what EHP is an abbreviation of...
EHP However is not your base life\ES it is your base life\es + all forms of mitigation taken into account.. example: if u had 50% physical mitigation with a base of 100 health you would have 150EHP vs physical - regen would fall more into a EHP overtime category but i use EHP to standardise where maybe i should not, however my point of ES having less EHP because of no flask use remains valid.

a fast regen survival pool after not being hit for 6 seconds isnt exactly useful in most of situations and is in no way EHP. The majority of the times you will actually take dmg is due to Fast moving creatures or blink strike rares that do massive dmg to a witch each hit!!. how do u propose i avoid being hit for long enough for this regen to take place when i cannot get any distance on the attacking creatures long enough to recharge this OP pool of ES

Leach is our only combat viable regen but the moment we stop casting we are dead, yet another reason why the loss of flasks is so huge. health flasks alone double your EHP and its not like every other build out there cant use leach.

the fact remains, 10k ES cannot compare to 5k Health. the ONLY situation ES wins out in is if something would have 1 shot crit you.

Dont forget EVERYONE has at leased some ES thus everyone has the 50% chance to avoid a stun until they start to take damage.

"

Axebane wrote:

I stand by what I said before: It makes no sense from a game balance perspective to remove the main drawback of CI without nerfing it's other properties. We would be right back to the situation PoE was in about a year ago: CI was so powerful that almost everyone used it. Melee, Ranged, Spells, it didn't matter. CI was the superior choice for nearly every build in the game. It was just plain silly. And back then the stun/freeze/shock duration was calculated the same way as it is now...

What exactly is the main drawback? obviously there is more than one. also before CI got nerfed (i hear it started with something like 100%+ es) i dare say people simply didnt have gear and choose to take the fast track, choosing to ignore EHP simply because they where scared of being 1 shot by vaal. (this happened very much the same in diablo3 upon launch, everyone stacked massive health to find at harder content it actually was not the best option - its just the same for ES with no EHP)

once again not being 1 shot is an advantage.. but hey its not liek we cant avoid vaals attacks.. since he is the ONLY boss in the game who might one shot you (if crit in shit gear) it isnt exactly a decent advantage.


so i guess i concede CI has 2 benefits. immune to chaos (limited usefulness) and very unlikely to be 1 shot crit (also extremely limited use)

I still cannot agree that the down sides to CI are justified vs the gains. especially since the gains are very limited. the situations that make teh benifits of CI useful are 100% avoidable by players not using CI, once u have killed vaal merci. i don't know whats worse being so vulnerable to elemental effects or zero EHP O.o but when combined its just ridiculous!

"

Srafty wrote:

Pros of CI
1. immune to chaos dmg. "a damage type that in end game can be entirely avoided". (did i miss anything?) im pretty sure this is the ONE and the ONLY real reason to take CI.

Add the new cluster which gives 42% more ES.

With my new low life build I can say firmly that being immune to chaos damage is a very big Pro. Even on some of my melee tanks I've been crushed by chaos damage in maps. Have fun avoiding LMP PA skeletons while still being able to kill them at melee range.

"

Cons of CI
1. you lose access to your health pool and along with it the massive benifits flasks provide.
2. you lose all armor and eva due to gearing requirements,
3. you lose massive stats or passives just to get back to even ground with elemental status effect vs life users, if not you are prone to having elemental ailment stacked upone you

1. Most people use flasks for "oh shit" moments. Your ES pool gets so large that they don't exist. With 10k ES you won't get one shot, the drawback is you stand out of combat for a little bit. What do you think someone with life who had an "oh shit" moment is going to do? CI user just sits out longer.

2. Bazz is known for his armor/ES CI templars. I had an EK CI shadow with 20% evade and 9k ES at lvl 79. It's not acro, you can use both armor and evasion, just more gear dependent.

3. My EK CI shadow I didn't spend any passives on avoidance stuff, didn't have US and didn't use any of the uniques that did this stuff. Only builds closer to combat than EK are FP (without high quality and fast projectiles) and melee. I was fine because I had such a large ES pool. While I did die sometimes because I got lazy or too aggressive, for the most part I knew I wouldn't be one shot and even if I was frozen for a long time I knew I'd have time to escape, fire a few shots and recover my ES.

The only way a life build in godly gear matches an ES build in godly gear, is using kaoms. So at the very top of the mountain you are left to use a bow/2h weapon or ES.

@moonsifer
"1. Most people use flasks for "oh shit" moments."(moonsifer)

ive done this in maps with 1.7k health and 3k ES.. many times my ES droped to zero and them flasks kept me alive more times than i can count... but then i got alch bomb crit in a 68map - really the solution is to use that new unique chest - that thing puts CI to shame, which i guess is why they added ES behind the nodes. it has no draw backs other than a minor % loss to ES and u still get to keep ur 1-2k health for Oh shit moments


as for the rest i read that as saying CI is extremely good for end game once u have extremely hard to obtain gear... i simply say yes so is health

My point is there is no middle ground its Excellent gear or dont use CI

"

Srafty wrote:

@moonsifer


i read that as saying CI is extremely good for end game once u have extreemly hard to obtain gear... i simply say yes so is health

E: my point is there is no middle ground

There is no way to buff CI for mid game (at least in any way I see) without making it way OP in the late game.

Because of the +50% ES mod (not 100%) in CB, it was common to see this in week races. First 3-5 days 18 of the top 20 were GS maras, all 20 are life users. By the 6-7th days witches, shadows and summoners creep in with higher EHP and MUCH higher kill speed (hence the quick rise).

The reason it hasn't happen in OB yet is a few factors, one the addition of chaos resistance and the nerf to %ES given when taking CI. It was a huge double nerf that made it so without incredible gear CI was pointless. Then we learned how hard it is to stack chaos res and they added 42% ES back so CI will gain popularity again.

The other issue is that new chest that allows chaos damage to go to ES rather than life making low life builds popular. All the people who have that amazing gear and would normally go to CI are going low life, sacrificing 50-75% EHP (while still having alot) but doubling or tripling their damage so their EHP doesn't matter as much.

Making stuns/ailments calculated by ES rather than life is not a middle ground or even a real reason to use CI midgame as it would still require gear. But late game it would make CI even more OP and life would seems useless.

"

Moosifer wrote:

"

Srafty wrote:

@moonsifer


i read that as saying CI is extremely good for end game once u have extreemly hard to obtain gear... i simply say yes so is health

E: my point is there is no middle ground

There is no way to buff CI for mid game (at least in any way I see) without making it way OP in the late game.

Because of the +50% ES mod (not 100%) in CB, it was common to see this in week races. First 3-5 days 18 of the top 20 were GS maras, all 20 are life users. By the 6-7th days witches, shadows and summoners creep in with higher EHP and MUCH higher kill speed (hence the quick rise).

The reason it hasn't happen in OB yet is a few factors, one the addition of chaos resistance and the nerf to %ES given when taking CI. It was a huge double nerf that made it so without incredible gear CI was pointless. Then we learned how hard it is to stack chaos res and they added 42% ES back so CI will gain popularity again.

The other issue is that new chest that allows chaos damage to go to ES rather than life making low life builds popular. All the people who have that amazing gear and would normally go to CI are going low life, sacrificing 50-75% EHP (while still having alot) but doubling or tripling their damage so their EHP doesn't matter as much.

Making stuns/ailments calculated by ES rather than life is not a middle ground or even a real reason to use CI midgame as it would still require gear. But late game it would make CI even more OP and life would seems useless.

I have to admit i agree with most of what you say and i do appreciate your input. specifically because u have pointed out the main floor that i guess is the cause of my concerns. that being ES isnt viable pre gear. but adding some kind of diminishing effects to ES could stop it becoming to OP at higher gear levels while making it viable from as earlie as cruel.

When everyone was screaming for a CI nerf I said the best idea was to raise the base values (because ES gear without 100% + flat roll tend to be shit making it very hard early game to gear up) lower the rolls (so you don't turn a 300 ES chest into a 1200 ES chest) and remove the 50% ES from CI.

They kept the bases (so still no good for early game) nerfed the rolls (doesn't matter, still a few 900+ ES chests, a 1000 6l that's been mirrored like 10 times) and removed the %ES from CI then added chaos res to all classes.

I'd like to see CI more balanced between mid/end game but that's gear related, not passive.