The arguement against auto trading is what, exactly?...

The same 3 stupid arguments I see against it are..

1. "It would make it to easy!!!!"

Well currently it isn't hard, it's just annoying and time consuming.

2. "It would ruin the economy!!!!"

The economy is already total trash as it is.

3. (This is my favorite one) "But you would lose the community interaction!!!!"

Cause, "T4T" is the pinnacle of community interaction.

They really just need to remove trade all together. But they aren't going to do that either. Just get used to using what we have. It's player driven. If you're not able to get the map you want it's because you're not paying people enough to sell it to you. If people aren't responding to your whispers, it's up to you to dig a little deeper into your pocket and find someone who will.

Otherwise, they might as well cave and add an AH and see if their golden goose makes it another year. They don't think it would.

They obviously didn't think where we're at now would work either and yet here we are 7 years later and it's fine. Of course where we are now is what they're afraid of. We've removed all the work that they care about now it's just a clunky down home system that's embarrassing. Making a smooth reliable system that forces people to follow through and their advertisements and yes that's exactly what they are when you say you will sell an object for an amount, doesn't change anything, it just hurts people who are being assholes.

At this point anti-automated trade is just pro asshole there's no other good reason. Everything else in the manifesto was forced by players to be that way out of open beta, just plain silly, or actually worse right now. It's pro-botting, by maximizing the divide between botters and player, and it's pro-constant trader by maximizing the payoff for them. The only actual con in the manifesto is that GGG threatens to balance the game more around trade than it already is, and that's on them, it's a threat, not an actual consequence of trade.

At the end of the day what they did is they made a game where you're supposed to trade constantly, because it's at least 100 times better than not. They made a game where the best thing to be doing is to be constantly trading for everything, trading for both character advancement, and actual content. They made trading the solution to everything in the game, and decide to balance it by making it clunky, and frustrating, but without the emotional payoff of overcoming a real obstacle. It's like making going to the DMV the right solution to your game, when you could learn to drive by driving around in a race car instead.

You are NOT supposed to trade constantly. You're supposed to trade once and a while. It's not SUPPOSED to be a short cut to get your atlas filled in an afternoon. It's not SUPPOSED to be a way to gain wealth geometrically without even getting a drop.

It's SUPPOSED to allow players to exchange items.

In 100 posts we've accomplished exactly the what the other 100 100-post threads on the same subject have accomplished. Squat. They really should simply outlaw these threads.

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Biovital wrote:

The same 3 stupid arguments I see against it are..

1. "It would make it to easy!!!!"

Well currently it isn't hard, it's just annoying and time consuming.

2. "It would ruin the economy!!!!"

The economy is already total trash as it is.

3. (This is my favorite one) "But you would lose the community interaction!!!!"

Cause, "T4T" is the pinnacle of community interaction.

Making it less annoying and time consuming makes it easier.

The economy is trash because of why exactly? The economy is PoE is very complex and huge, it's amazing that it is actually as stable as it is. You underestimate the work GGG puts into that simply because you want easy trade.

I like interaction. Ty.

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ThIsIsToXiN wrote:

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Deathfairy wrote:

Better update system would fix majority of complains already.

You are joking right?
Current trading system is trash, and not just the "slow api" is the problem.

Fine i ll be as logically supporting my arguments like you.

No you wrong trade is perfectly fine. You cant see it? You kidding right?

"

1453R wrote:

So...

...can we just, like...auto-lock every new trade thread that pops up? Just have the system flag it and lock it automatically, generate a message saying "here are three hundred other threads you can direct any discussion you'd like to have on trade to"?

That'd be nice. That's a QoL feature I'd approve of.

Manually sorting through the threads is far superior. Automatic filtering would break the forum

"

j33bus wrote:

They obviously didn't think where we're at now would work either and yet here we are 7 years later and it's fine.

What we have right now is a system where most people don't trade frequently because its frustrating, boring, and tedious to make several transactions.

There is a few bots that make it easier, but for 99% of players. They don't engage in trading or do so rarely, as mentioned by GGG. Which is exactly what GGG wanted.

Its not even close to what GGG thinks wouldn't work.

"

Making a smooth reliable system that forces people to follow through and their advertisements and yes that's exactly what they are when you say you will sell an object for an amount, doesn't change anything, it just hurts people who are being assholes.

Based on what? Your imaginary opinion on what you think will happen?

Cause practically every game in existence has trade limits for the exact situation you say 'won't do anything'.

"

At this point anti-automated trade is just pro asshole there's no other good reason.

There are lot of good reasons, if you spent time actually looking them up.

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Everything else in the manifesto was forced by players to be that way out of open beta, just plain silly, or actually worse right now. It's pro-botting, by maximizing the divide between botters and player, and it's pro-constant trader by maximizing the payoff for them.

Except botting gets you banned. What kind of moron thinks the game is pro-botting when you clearly get punished for it.

You know what? I think the world is pro-robbery. Yeah, if you steal from someone. You clearly maximizing your effort to reward. So, most people must be stealing right?

This is stupid thinking.

Also, it absolutely feels like shit to try to trade a lot.

Try whispering 5-30 people in a row and wasting 5-20 minutes trying to do a bulk trade or getting spammed by 20 requests.

Its anti-trader and anti-botting.

The very opposite where you think the game is right now.

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The only actual con in the manifesto is that GGG threatens to balance the game more around trade than it already is, and that's on them, it's a threat, not an actual consequence of trade.

So every online game has trade barriers, and balances their game around their trade system, but none of that is a consequence of trade?

Where is your brain at here dude?

Why not look-up other games and think why do they have trade limits, realm restrictions, and bind on equip items?

It can't be that hard to figure out if 99% of online games balance their games around their trade system.

That is a requirement, not a threat.

"

At the end of the day what they did is they made a game where you're supposed to trade constantly, because it's at least 100 times better than not. They made a game where the best thing to be doing is to be constantly trading for everything, trading for both character advancement, and actual content. They made trading the solution to everything in the game, and decide to balance it by making it clunky, and frustrating, but without the emotional payoff of overcoming a real obstacle. It's like making going to the DMV the right solution to your game, when you could learn to drive by driving around in a race car instead.

No, they made a game were trading is lucrative, but feels like shit. So, most players won't engage with it.

It like driving down the road in a shitty car .

Most people stick to a safe speed, because the car sucks and when you go too fast, the seat bounces and you hit your head on the ceiling.

It feels like shit to drive fast.

Some people don't give a fuck. And go zoom-zoom. Sometimes, they hit a person and screw up the economy.

But most people are driving safely because the car is so shitty.

Sounds like you agree with me trading needs to be fixed because it's absolutely 100% stupid to make a game where the best thing to do feels like shit. We agree trading is the best thing to be doing and it

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rustrating, boring, and tedious to make several transactions.

That's bad game design right there, why don't we make the best thing to be doing fun? Or at least not a negative experience. Having bad systems isn't balance, nor is it good game design, it's just a bad system that needs fixing.

"

Based on what? Your imaginary opinion on what you think will happen?

Based on exactly where we are right now in the game. So based on more evidence than any anti-automated trade people have. Which for the record is nothing, there is no evidence it would be bad at all.

"

There are lot of good reasons, if you spent time actually looking them up.

no there aren't, there's nothing not a single thing that's based on evidence.

"

Except botting gets you banned. What kind of moron thinks the game is pro-botting when you clearly get punished for it.

Great, so that excuse in the manifesto is meaningless, another reason why automated trade is fine. Botting gets you banned, but if you do get away with it the delta between doing it in the current system and playing legit is greater than with automated trade. It's a comparative thing, the game is more pro botting than it would be with automated trade.

"

So every online game has trade barriers, and balances their game around their trade system, but none of that is a consequence of trade?

Where is your brain at here dude?

Why not look-up other games and think why do they have trade limits, realm restrictions, and bind on equip items?

It can't be that hard to figure out if 99% of online games balance their games around their trade system.

That is a requirement, not a threat.

It's a threat not a requirement, they don't have to do that, they think they should, and are threatening to do it if trade improves. There's a strong difference between the two, why don't you think through your statements? Also yea other games restrict trade so that it's mostly meaningless, they got rid of most trade, GGG is super unrestricted, which is why we're where we are now. Shags is right they should just get rid of trade, but they sold it so they can't. Which is why they should start having the trade system they balanced for, which to be completely honest is more than anyone is asking for, the system they balanced the game around involves trade being done constantly by bots.

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No, they made a game were trading is lucrative, but feels like shit. So, most players won't engage with it.

It like driving down the road in a shitty car .

Most people stick to a safe speed, because the car sucks and when you go too fast, the seat bounces and you hit your head on the ceiling.

It feels like shit to drive fast.

Some people don't give a fuck. And go zoom-zoom. Sometimes, they hit a person and screw up the economy.

But most people are driving safely because the car is so shitty.

Except that God almighty is coming down from the heavens and telling you "go fast" "go faster" "keep going fast it's what you're supposed to do" The game itself tells you to trade more and more because it is the best thing to be doing at all times. It is the best way to get better gear, it's the best way to engage in content, that is rewarding or fun. Trading is the best thing to be doing, and it's not fun. Trading is the best thing to be doing and it's frustrating, boring, and tedious.

Again just bad game design. Fix the car you expect people to have fun in. Don't expect people to get out and fix the car themselves, and then when they finally fix it up enough that they can't do it anymore, tell them that's it. Don't make the car shitty and expect people not to constantly tell you the car is shitty. Especially 100% don't tell them to be glad the car is shitty. The car is just shitty full stop, no pros, only cons.

Don't put bad systems in your game, don't do it, never ever, for any reason do it. Don't balance around your systems being bad. If it's not fun don't put it in your game.

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What we have right now is a system where most people don't trade frequently because its frustrating, boring, and tedious to make several transactions.

I'm summary this quote right now is exactly why trading is bad and why it needs to be fixed, there's no good reason for anything in a game ever to be frustrating boring or tedious, that's just making a bad game. Also if anyone complains about people complaining about trade, going to the developers and saying "this is frustrating, boring and tedious" is literally the best case scenario for a game when something is designed to be that way, it means people like the rest of the game enough not to just call it bad and leave.

Say it with me one more time, it is the job of game developers not to put things in their game that are boring or tedious.

Hmm, I'm going to try a different approach then.

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j33bus wrote:

That's bad game design right there, why don't we make the best thing to be doing fun? Or at least not a negative experience. Having bad systems isn't balance, nor is it good game design, it's just a bad system that needs fixing.

The goal of GGG is to get players to not trade often. And that's what this does. Is to get people not to trade.

Its not bad game design.

You have a bad opinion.

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Based on exactly where we are right now in the game. So based on more evidence than any anti-automated trade people have. Which for the record is nothing, there is no evidence it would be bad at all.

No, you think nothing bad will happen.

You think automation doesn't do anything bad.

All online games say you are wrong.

World of Warcraft, Runescape, Warframe, Dungeons and Dragons, and Path of Exile, Diablo 3.

You have no evidence. Because in all of these games and more. They all have restrictions on trade, because automatic trade causes problems.

In Path of Exile right now, bots mess-up the prices. The very same bots that = auction house in your mind.

So we know that auction house causes problems, but you want to make it even worse. Now, not only the bots, you want every single player to do the same game-breaking behavior?

Your evidence is your wrong idea of how you think trade works. You think it should be better, when GGG already said they don't want people to trade too much.

So you already have the wrong idea of why trade is in the game.

My evidence is all the other online games that exist right now.

You lose.

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no there aren't, there's nothing not a single thing that's based on evidence.

Yeah, there is. Every online game out there that proves you wrong.

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Great, so that excuse in the manifesto is meaningless, another reason why automated trade is fine. Botting gets you banned, but if you do get away with it the delta between doing it in the current system and playing legit is greater than with automated trade. It's a comparative thing, the game is more pro botting than it would be with automated trade.

That's the same thing as saying cheaters or hackers are fine. If you can hack your character. You don't have to waste time leveling up and getting items.

You can make yourself level 100 with all the best gear.

This is a dumb thing to say. If some people break the rules. You don't LET EVERYONE break the rules too.

That's how you make a game worse, not better.

You are also not reading the manifesto right.

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It's a threat not a requirement, they don't have to do that, they think they should, and are threatening to do it if trade improves.

They have to do it because their game will fail if they don't. Its not a threat.

All the games do this. If all the games do this, its no longer a threat.

If all cars have fuel. Is it a threat it won't run if you don't have gas?

No, its a requirement.

If all computers need electricity to run. Is it a threat it'll turn off if you don't have power?

No, its a requirement.

You have the wrong idea of what a threat and a requirement is.

You are wrong. Games need to be balanced with trade. Because ALL games are balanced around trade.

"

Except that God almighty is coming down from the heavens and telling you "go fast" "go faster" "keep going fast it's what you're supposed to do"

Again just bad game design. Fix the car you expect people to have fun in.

I guess that's the excuse all criminals use when they break the law. God almighty told me to steal from people. God almighty wants me to break the rules, and I have the most fun doing it.

Why is there all these rules stopping me.

So whatever gives you the most fun. They should fix it for you.

This is dumb.

What if you want to kill someone? Someone should let you do murder?

If GGG puts in a trade system that makes you not want to trade.

They are doing it to protect their GAME from all the trade problems.

But you want to make it worst, cause you can't tell the difference. You can't even figure out it make games worse.

All these other online games, telling you that trade is bad. But you ignore them because you can't think ahead.

Terrible idea.