They're people who think maps droping too much is a bad thing.

D2 was what made ARPGs what they are now, that required lots of skill, and had basically no grind unil you hit the very end and wanted to get OP. And you say success, you clearly mean being richer than other players though.

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BloodPuddles420 wrote:

D2 was what made ARPGs what they are now, that required lots of skill, and had basically no grind unil you hit the very end and wanted to get OP. And you say success, you clearly mean being richer than other players though.

d2 had no endgame besides boss running and pvp. you kill diablo (in classic), you were done. lod brought baal, same thing. baal runs to optimize

a10 kitava is the similar endpoint for story mode.

no, I dont mean being richer. I mean, progression through the endgame and accumulating best gear for your build.

the game was always about grind. I dont know why youre trying to say sky isnt blue.

catering to wider audience always dumbs down a game and approaches instant gratification. I can give you millions of gaming examples. and Id rather play a better game than a popular game.

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grepman wrote:

catering to wider audience always dumbs down a game and approaches instant gratification. I can give you millions of gaming examples. and Id rather play a better game than a popular game.

This argument is silly. Better is subjective, so is the right amount of grind and what to grind for.

Many players find map drops an annoying mechanic, although they will happily grind delve or guardians.

You prefer to grind for progression drops, some prefer gear grinds, etc etc. Some leagues gear is easier/faster, some leagues map drops are horrid.

Freaking out cause a single league doesn't make you indefinitely go back and forth to yellow maps due to sustain problems is silly. GGG didnt adjust them up last league when everyone cried for it, it would be pretty crazy if they listened to the complainers on the other side this time.

The game is still about grinding, just because the thing you're supposed to be grinding in the genre (equipment) is deemed so incredibly worthless that it's not worth picking any up, doesn't mean that's not what it's still about.

Now that the red herring grind is gone we can focus on fixing the part that's supposed to be ground out, then we can focus on creating a good content loop that doesn't abruptly end.

Gating content behind something that isn't completion is just a clunky way to slow things down, especially when it's possible to just scale content to players. What we're really learning is that their first endgame idea, which was just an endless dungeon, was just better.

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trixxar wrote:

. GGG didnt adjust them up last league when everyone cried for it, it would be pretty crazy if they listened to the complainers on the other side this time.

They actually did, when it became apparent that Synthesis content was awful and everyone was skipping it, they adjusted them back up to the rates they had when there was no synthesis. It happened about a week into the league.

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trixxar wrote:

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grepman wrote:

catering to wider audience always dumbs down a game and approaches instant gratification. I can give you millions of gaming examples. and Id rather play a better game than a popular game.

This argument is silly. Better is subjective, so is the right amount of grind and what to grind for.

Many players find map drops an annoying mechanic, although they will happily grind delve or guardians.

You prefer to grind for progression drops, some prefer gear grinds, etc etc. Some leagues gear is easier/faster, some leagues map drops are horrid.

Freaking out cause a single league doesn't make you indefinitely go back and forth to yellow maps due to sustain problems is silly. GGG didnt adjust them up last league when everyone cried for it, it would be pretty crazy if they listened to the complainers on the other side this time.

it's not a silly argument, it's a fact. Every single niche game that catered to a wider audience simplified things, streamlined them and so on. Catering to lowest common denominator is a killer of niche games.

And I obviously mean better game for me. I never speak for anyone other than myself. It's obviously subjective. And
Yeah, it's selfish, sue me. There's a million games out there that are accessible and very few that are niche, so I will fight for every niche game out there to stay niche.

Its been over 5 leagues ive been sustaining t15 + without using sextant.

Not sure what you're doing.

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grepman wrote:

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DarthSki44 wrote:

Strong points. Toxic points, but strong nonetheless.

If making the game accessible to wider amounts of players is actually a downside in your eyes, I dont even know what to say.

so not wanting to dumb down the game and keep the game about grinding, as opposed to instant gratification is a 'toxic' point ?

silly me, wanting the game to stay a niche game where you have to earn/work for shit, as opposed to every other game out where the game [Removed by Support] for doing shit youre supposed to be doing, is 'TOXIC' ?

wow.

I do not think what you say means what you think it means. How exactly is maps easier to get ''dumping down'' ? Does the mechanic change? No, you still do the same maps except that you do higher level ones instead of lower level ones. There is no dumbing down except in the mind of those too stuck in the old ways.

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andreicde wrote:

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grepman wrote:

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DarthSki44 wrote:

Strong points. Toxic points, but strong nonetheless.

If making the game accessible to wider amounts of players is actually a downside in your eyes, I dont even know what to say.

so not wanting to dumb down the game and keep the game about grinding, as opposed to instant gratification is a 'toxic' point ?

silly me, wanting the game to stay a niche game where you have to earn/work for shit, as opposed to every other game out where the game [Removed by Support] for doing shit youre supposed to be doing, is 'TOXIC' ?

wow.

I do not think what you say means what you think it means. How exactly is maps easier to get ''dumping down'' ? Does the mechanic change? No, you still do the same maps except that you do higher level ones instead of lower level ones. There is no dumbing down except in the mind of those too stuck in the old ways.

making the game more accessible is = to dumbing down.

that is what I quoted, not just the map change.

but yes, instant gratification is a form of dumbing down in a game that is directly and fully dependent on pure time investment.

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grepman wrote:

the company's name is literally 'grinding gears' and a play on 'grinding for gear'

the subgenre is the epitome of a grind.

progress in an arpg is a function of time and nothing else really. a bit of knowledge and very little skill, if any.

so uh, in this case, it is definitely time investment in doing grinding, ie repetitive mundane tasks.

PoE is a giant time sink in which success largely depends on your time investment more than on anything else

Yes, exactly. It's "grinding gears", a play on "grinding for gear" not "grinding maps", a play on "grinding for maps". Arpg games have always been about killing monsters in better or different ways. To do that you grind for better gear. You can argue that better gear is found in higher tier maps, but the point remains that those maps are gated behind annoying rng that burn out most of the playerbase a few weeks after the release of new leagues. So what we should have is a game based on grinding for better gear, but what we have is a grind to grind for gear. Don't you see anything wrong with that?

You say that dumbing down a game to reach a wider audience is bad, but then you proceed to say that arpgs require very little knowledge and skill. You unconsciously said what many others said in this thread: gating content behind rng and not difficulty is dumb and boring.

Anyway i really hope they won't nerf the drop rates again. It's been a while since i actually felt like running maps meant something...

I'm assuming you just play meta builds, spamming your way through like it's an idle game. Forced repetition doesn't benefit this game in any way. If you love the game so much, why are you mad they're letting you experience more of the enjoyable stuff in it? It's still the same game, with the same amount of depth. But now you can play through quicker though, make some progress in another game, watch a show, read a book. Your point "People shouldn't be allowed to do other things and still experience the whole game." makes absolutely no sense.