They're people who think maps droping too much is a bad thing.

"

Aiedail516 wrote:

I can ask you the same thing: do you think a level 90 character that dropped all of his gear and managed to get a good build that would actually complete the endgame content shouldn't be allowed to access it because of rng?

In a game about grind, that is absolutely normal.
Even in poe, people stop and farm gear in lower zones.

Have you ever played or watched high stakes poker?
I have.

Plenty of pro poker players who might lose their bankroll to bad beats and have to drop down a tier or two to lower stake to get their bankroll back.

Some will even grind multitables on much lower stakes. Notice the word grind. They're beating up on worse competition in order to build a bankroll and then go back to higher stakes.

And poker is way more of a skill game than PoE

People who grind for xp in poe never did the highest content. Grind doesn't mean doing difficult content.

You don't really want to "grind" even though you say so.

"

I agree with you i guess, we'll never meet a compromise. We just have a different vision of what this game should be.

not just this game, any niche game really. I think there should be games that are completely inaccessible to a certain audience, whether it's because of time investment needed or difficulty or whatever

"

LeetbakaDX wrote:

"

jackof8lades wrote:

This whole rng gating is a bullshit argument.
Endame is not gated by rng period.

[Removed by Support] watch some SSF streams, takes most of them half the league to actually flesh their build because they can't reply on GGG's assbackwards trade system to sell the Exalts to Chaos Farming bots...

FUNDAMENTALLY SPEAKING : item (Maps) has drop chance and other features that skew away from the players intention (Horizon orbs/AltOf missing your map at a higher rate than usual when using a larger sample of attempts) -> RNG Gating

I haven't bought a single map since summer 2013,yet in every single league aside from synthesis I was able to fully uncover atlas.

Yes, it takes me longer. So what.

And in synthesis had some rl stuff and grim dawn expansion that sidetracked me. Pretty sure it was normal ass map drops there.

"

grepman wrote:

is literally you making fun of a minority.

same here, I don't believe a single word.

"

Xystre wrote:

"

grepman wrote:

is literally you making fun of a minority.

same here, I don't believe a single word.

Oh no you don't believe what will I do! Oh wait make fun of the minority who think having good map drop rates is bad.

Yeah I'll do that more.

"

"

Xystre wrote:

"

grepman wrote:

is literally you making fun of a minority.

same here, I don't believe a single word.

Oh no you don't believe what will I do! Oh wait make fun of the minority who think having good map drop rates is bad.

Yeah I'll do that more.

you just tried denying you're a majority though. make up your damn mind

Yeah via people like you that's it lol I'm specifically making fun of people like you who think map drop rates are too high.

Aka your the minority.

See I'm the minority in terms I like timers - I like taking a dump on ''Unskilled'' players to a degree but what I don't like is you people going MAP DROPS ARE A BAD THING AHHHHHH.

Why am I even bothering with you like you aren't that special just another person who thinks the game is too ez and going map drop rates is too high when nobody is literally going to take you seriously.

Yeah, screw minorities, why don't you be like he rest of the world you fucking hipsters.

"

j33bus wrote:

The game is still about grinding, just because the thing you're supposed to be grinding in the genre (equipment) is deemed so incredibly worthless that it's not worth picking any up, doesn't mean that's not what it's still about.

well this is the thing, why is grinding for gear such a worthless seeming endeavour a lot of the time? Because there isnt content that people have access to that requires them to have good gear. So the reason that this games grinding for gear system has fallen apart is because theyve made getting to content that requires gear a grind. One is destroying the other.

"

jackof8lades wrote:

1: Giving free acces to endgame makes the endgame unearned, both the endgame
itself and the journey towards it should be a struggle imo.

but the endgame isnt a struggle, nothing is a struggle, because people are over geared and over levelled for the content they have access to. In making it a struggle to get to hard content, you make the game an easy joke, because players are in easy joke content...

I agree with you in theory, if it were up to me this game would be massively harder than it is, but cant you see the contradiction that starts to creep in when it starts going down this road? Players should earn it... ok through what means? Because the easiest way to earn it is through trade right now. You can trade for all this content, so do you think think that is a positive thing? That is where the struggle should be? The game itself should be a joke and the actual struggle is to flip items etc using poe.trade?

I would like the actual game to be hard, I want people to struggle actually playing, not trading.

"

grepman wrote:

1) access to t15 maps on the 'my build can do it' basis basically deems the entire system useless.

I agree, but I would add that this is because its a useless system.

"

grepman wrote:

especially since most builds can do white t15s without much gear or investment. there is NO reason to run lower maps than higher maps if maps are an infinite resource.

so why are we stuck here? why isnt there T30 maps that builds cant run, why dont we get everyone playing t15 maps if thats what they can do? What is the point of having everyone playing content that is beneath their builds ability?

I feel like ur using the map system to justify the map system, in the face of the map system in its current form being unjustifiable from a gameplay perspective. Gameplay is what matters.

"

grepman wrote:

so not wanting to dumb down the game and keep the game about grinding, as opposed to instant gratification is a 'toxic' point ?

silly me, wanting the game to stay a niche game where you have to earn/work for shit.

but you are arguing to keep people in easier content. Your argument is to have the average players game feel significantly easier, so from a gameplay perspective you are the one arguing for the game to be dumber. You are arguing for people to play content that requires less work to complete, where its easier to earn everything completing the content has to offer.

You dont see that contradiction? I think you do, I know you to be a very smart person, and I agree with the view point of the game being dumbed down in the way you describe. But there is that other side right? The part where if you dont dumb down the access part what you actually do is dumb down the gameplay part.

I dont want either of them to be dumb, but I got to be honest, we 6 years in now? Im fucking sick of the gameplay being dumb man, I really am, right now I want the hours I spent playing to be quality, I want my play to be good and all these theories about what it should or shouldnt take to get to content is all just seeming irrelevant in the face of the actual game Im playing feeling like shit. The gameplay must be the priority, without the moment by moment play being quality non of this other stuff matters.

"

grepman wrote:

I said the game is about grinding. It can be about grinding anything. GGG, at the very beginning said that high tier maps should be a rare drop and level 100 shouldn't be ver be attainable. I very much shared those views of theirs when they started. Arpgs are a time sink that depend on your time put in.

I agree with that vision too. I agree with the idea that if you have a map system, the top tiers of maps should be really hard to find, thats the whole point of a map system.

but I think if people can do t16 maps easily then they should find it easy to get into t16 maps. People should be playing content that starts to challenge them. If that means we need maps up to t40 then thats what we should have, and if getting to 100 is too easy even now then a t40 map should give less xp than a t16 currently does.

The tier of the map, the xp it offers, the items that drop, this is all dressing, this is all things that are bolted on to the gameplay. You dont design gameplay around the stuff you bolted on to it, you design the gameplay to be functional and fun and then you bolt on what is appropriate after. Its completely illogical to sit there and work out what content people should have access to based on the xp and items that drop there.

If there really is no reason for anyone to play a map below t16 without gating them then no map below T16 should exist, a t16 map should become a t1 map with t1 rewards and we go up from there. If that statement is true then its proof the entire map system is a broken farce.

I dont think its 100% true, but I think for a lot of endgame characters it becomes true enough.

"

Snorkle_uk wrote:

I agree, but I would add that this is because its a useless system.

ok. the system has glaring flaws, yes.

the main idea is still sound though, and it is the MAIN idea you disagree on.

I believe there is NOTHING fundamentally wrong with running easier content to build up your bankroll. I used poker as a great analogy, where its a skill game yet it is gated by RNG and your bankroll (maps). You fundamentally disagree with that concept. Why - just because. OK.

"

so why are we stuck here? why isnt there T30 maps that builds cant run, why dont we get everyone playing t15 maps if thats what they can do? What is the point of having everyone playing content that is beneath their builds ability?

that is a result of a power creep. back in 2013 it was tough as fuck to run endgame maps. making t15 maps tough as shit would solve it. the issue is PoE nowadays caters to trash killing casual majority, so they cant just buff the trash to be super hard in t15s. the outcries will be hilarious

"

I feel like ur using the map system to justify the map system, in the face of the map system in its current form being unjustifiable from a gameplay perspective. Gameplay is what matters.

from gameplay perspective, accumulating some resources (map bankroll) on lower difficulty content in order to advance further/upgrade things, is a very common thing in tons of games.

"

but you are arguing to keep people in easier content.

I was arguing that a viewpoint of 'less maps drops is good' isnt 'toxic' per se in any way, shape or form. It's just a viewpoint. Is it selfish ? Of course. It's 2019 and I play games from 90s because of games nowadays being designed for anyone from a frying pan to a tree trunk

"

Your argument is to have the average players game feel significantly easier, so from a gameplay perspective you are the one arguing for the game to be dumber. You are arguing for people to play content that requires less work to complete, where its easier to earn everything completing the content has to offer.

You dont see that contradiction? I think you do, I know you to be a very smart person, and I agree with the view point of the game being dumbed down in the way you describe. But there is that other side right? The part where if you dont dumb down the access part what you actually do is dumb down the gameplay part.

I see that point, yes. I dont see grinding in order to reach a goal as a problem. I mind a problem when mindless grinding of lower content can get you ANYTHING and EVERYTHING in the game (ie, via currency and trade as well as xp)

I dont mind grinding lower tier maps until I can go to upper tier maps. There is nothing problematic about that system to me. It's a system I LIKE. This is why I dont buy maps off principle. I like pyramidal system of ascending up map tiers. reminds me of poker and going from micros to medium stakes and managing my bankroll. I like resource management, and welcome any form of it in ARPG genre.

"

but I think if people can do t16 maps easily then they should find it easy to get into t16 maps. People should be playing content that starts to challenge them. If that means we need maps up to t40 then thats what we should have, and if getting to 100 is too easy even now then a t40 map should give less xp than a t16 currently does.

the problem is the casual people, like I said before, will complain if they cant faceroll the higher maps. this is where GGG diverged completely from their original ideas.

the issue with power creep is, you are just moving the breaking point. eventually, you will arrive at the same problem at t30.

what you really want is infinite scaling that is only gated by difficulty and nothing else. I dont think this is easily achievable in an arpg endgame that has balance issues and wide gaps between builds. maybe not achievable at all. gating content behind rng and resource accumulation allows for a dangling carrot though.

the problem in poe is progression in endgame is fucked big time. it is there during story. then its like a wild wild west once you beat kitava.

I agree with most of what u say obviously, because its mostly common sense.

"

grepman wrote:

I believe there is NOTHING fundamentally wrong with running easier content to build up your bankroll. I used poker as a great analogy, where its a skill game yet it is gated by RNG and your bankroll (maps). You fundamentally disagree with that concept. Why - just because. OK.

i dont necessarily disagree with the concept in a theoretical sense, but I do completely disagree with the current implementation of it, because it doesnt lead to the game being as fun or as challenging as it could be, it keeps it pretty far off it, and it destroys a lot of other systems like the item and build system. What I mean by that is theres no need to really have a great build or great gear in poe, average build with fairly shit gear just stomps the entire map system. Its undermining the other aspects of the game, and for me the item system and the build system are more important than the map system, if I had to pick 2 and the expense of the 3rd Id lose the map system.

Were at a point where melee is considered shit, and look at what reave can do. Thats shit? Is that where we are at? A shit build can speed clear the highest maps in the game without stopping for air. I feel like I could make any old build, just roughly grab some life and damage nodes, use whatever gear drops for me and clear out the map system.

"

grepman wrote:

what you really want is infinite scaling that is only gated by difficulty and nothing else. I dont think this is easily achievable in an arpg endgame that has balance issues and wide gaps between builds. maybe not achievable at all. gating content behind rng and resource accumulation allows for a dangling carrot though.

the problem in poe is progression in endgame is fucked big time. it is there during story. then its like a wild wild west once you beat kitava.

D3 managed it. They have a problem in that theyre great devs and they have managed to make good gameplay and difficulty scaling that enables that gameplay because theyre good game devs. But theyre shit arpg devs, they dont have a clue, so the core of what needs to be good in a game is there but its sitting at the heart of a shit arpg, the item system, build system, variety of endgame activities... so much of that game is absolute toilet.


I feel like making endless scaling zones isnt hard, the devs just need to calm down. Hey lets make people excited to play it so lets add high maps and insane crafting materials an elder rares and... no, clam down and sit down before you fall down. No maps, no elder/shaper, no essences, no lvl80+ xp, no raining currency from the sky, no op crafting mats that make 1k es chests, just calm the fuck down and make scaling content for people who want scaling content. Dont spend a ton of time on it, dont bribe the kids who dont wanna go to go, just make it and put it in the game, see how it plays out and how to jazz it up from there. I swear I could theory up a system right now that would take 1/20 of the time it took to make delve and it would function enough to be a starting point.


I honestly think an endless scaling dungeon along side an infinite non scaling ledge... 2 relatively easy things to put together, if u put them in the game ungated I would spend maybe 80%+ of my time in them rather than maps. I would actually play this game rather than coming around for 1 week and then leaving because the endgame systems are such utter garbage.

Something as simple as make blood aqueduct, when u go through the door at the end ur in another blood aqueduct, make the zone level 79. I would take that over the entire mapping system. Theres a question, would I get bored? Ya sure, but Id stick around long enough to get bored of it which would end up being about 10x as many hours as I stick around for the map system.



Most of the people I would see who were still in there grinding the game 2 months into the league after everyone else had quit were playing shaped strand meta. They just chained 1 straight line zone for the entire league, and yet those were the guys still there grinding that 1 zone 6 weeks after most people had left. What does shaped strand meta tell us about what players want when we look at a simple endless ledge vs a huge complex map system? It says the map system is a waste of time imo, its a gigantic ego penis stroking act of bullshit from devs who dont even want to play it themselves, they just wanted to design it. Given the option tons of the long term grinders just chose to chain a straight zone endlessly, even when it was 5 tiers below maps they could have easily sustained, even when they no longer needed the currency or the xp and it all became pointless they were still sticking with strand.