Fools like me, however, respond to the sensible intent behind threads like this, not the foolish, surface-level posturing. Of course one should not reject reasoned arguments but one should also not make all the changes - even the reasonable ones - just because it will appeal to the mass market.
There IS a valid and sensible reason to create a niche product and it is clear - to some of us, at least - that GGG's intended goal with PoE was more niche than perhaps has been publicly communicated.
I think some people in this community are legitimately delusional. There's no other answer.
They don't make the game easier - just stupider. I don't want to play a game to have maths thrust in my face - I'm happy to dig for that stuff and 'math' away in the background but numbers on my screen is the dumbest ass idea ever. Go play asian games if you want to have the bare mechanics thrust in your face so obviously.
Then turn them off.
I personally don't see how you can argue that you're "hardcore" on one hand and that they shouldn't give in to mainstream, and then on the other hand don't want to "math away." If you don't want to do basic arithmetic to min-max, then you pretty much surrender any claim of being hardcore.
The masses want it easier eternally, and do not look back, ever.
The masses will bring the game to the point where the few with leave because they cannot distinguish themselves by their skill and knowledge, and then the masses will leave because they follow and secretly wants to be like the few.
Err... "skill" and "knowledge"? lol. What skill? Heck, there isn't that much knowledge involved either.
"
Have courage GGG, we believe in the hardcore ARPG game, free loot, etc etc, a bloodthirsty enviroment where the few will have great fun, and the masses will not get their ways.
What does FFA loot have to do with skill or knowledge?
"Bloodthirsty"? Um... claim not in evidence at all. Last I checked cutthroat wasn't available except for limited duration race leagues.
"
We already see it happening,
Some want floating damage numbers, some want no FFA loot, etc etc
I have no idea what any of those wants have to do with the game requiring more or less skill or knowledge, or making the game mindless.
"
They are here now in the community and they will not stop asking you to make the game more mindless.
The game is already mindless. Choose one of a few cone attacks, spam until everything is dead. Stack all the health nodes you can get. How could you possibly make it more mindless?
Oh yeah, a 'crafting' system that's actually just a slot machine. Wait, we already have that.
Seriously, this post is so poorly reasoned that it's impossible to figure out what your issues are with people's claims. Nothing you defend is demonstrably hardcore, skill-based, bloodthirsty, or requires in-depth knowledge.
I think some people in this community are legitimately delusional. There's no other answer.
They don't make the game easier - just stupider. I don't want to play a game to have maths thrust in my face - I'm happy to dig for that stuff and 'math' away in the background but numbers on my screen is the dumbest ass idea ever. Go play asian games if you want to have the bare mechanics thrust in your face so obviously.
Then turn them off.
I personally don't see how you can argue that you're "hardcore" on one hand and that they shouldn't give in to mainstream, and then on the other hand don't want to "math away." If you don't want to do basic arithmetic to min-max, then you pretty much surrender any claim of being hardcore.
Well firstly, hardcore has nothing to do with floating numbers onscreen. And secondly, I never called myself 'hardcore' and those who do are just using the term the way they define it so I don't see a problem with them calling themselves that either.
The old "just make it an option - it doesn't hurt anyone else" argument is flawed too for reasons that have been covered in every thread to africa but the simplest quickest one for me to slot in off the top of my head is that I'd rather they spend resources on fixing desync and other such things than providing options for people who don't like the way the game is made.
It's made this way, find something else that plays the way you like it. What's wrong with that?
Yup, numberz are bad, especially above mob noggins i don't want 2 see them. Makes me head hurt math wuz hard in scool plz no more memoriez of that.
Plz no GGG, thxkk dontgiveinton00bztheyrbadienjoyqqtearsandamveryharcccccoreee
Fools like me, however, respond to the sensible intent behind threads like this, not the foolish, surface-level posturing. Of course one should not reject reasoned arguments but one should also not make all the changes - even the reasonable ones - just because it will appeal to the mass market.
There IS a valid and sensible reason to create a niche product and it is clear - to some of us, at least - that GGG's intended goal with PoE was more niche than perhaps has been publicly communicated.
Who is talking about the mass market? That's a problem that is quite prolific with peoples reasoning on these forums; it's very often centered around a false dichotomy, either the game is "OMG SUPAR HARDCORE!" or it's "lol scrubmode D3 level of casual fail" and anything that doesn't line up with the narrow, arbitrary, subjective view of what constitutes "hardcore", is instantly relegated to the "lol casual D3 fail" category. I'm really quite convinced that many of the people on this forum are so desperate to preserve some ideal they have of a "hardcore game", that whatever GGG actually thinks is irrelevant, and they will even defend even objective flaws (not flaws to a casual mass market, plain old flaws) using the argument "hey it's not bad, it's just too hardcore for you".
Alteration Orb Union Local #7
"Alts are 16:1 Chaos. You got that tough guy?
I think some people in this community are legitimately delusional. There's no other answer.
They don't make the game easier - just stupider. I don't want to play a game to have maths thrust in my face - I'm happy to dig for that stuff and 'math' away in the background but numbers on my screen is the dumbest ass idea ever. Go play asian games if you want to have the bare mechanics thrust in your face so obviously.
I don't know if you have played this game or what, but it is literally all math right now at the highest level, where this would be most applicable. It would be toggle-able anyway. It'd do nothing but give you information you'd normally just google or spreadsheet for.
Fools like me, however, respond to the sensible intent behind threads like this, not the foolish, surface-level posturing. Of course one should not reject reasoned arguments but one should also not make all the changes - even the reasonable ones - just because it will appeal to the mass market.
There IS a valid and sensible reason to create a niche product and it is clear - to some of us, at least - that GGG's intended goal with PoE was more niche than perhaps has been publicly communicated.
Who is talking about the mass market? That's a problem that is quite prolific with peoples reasoning on these forums; it's very often centered around a false dichotomy, either the game is "OMG SUPAR HARDCORE!" or it's "lol scrubmode D3 level of casual fail" and anything that doesn't line up with the narrow, arbitrary, subjective view of what constitutes "hardcore", is instantly relegated to the "lol casual D3 fail" category. I'm really quite convinced that many of the people on this forum are so desperate to preserve some ideal they have of a "hardcore game", that whatever GGG actually thinks is irrelevant, and they will even defend even objective flaws (not flaws to a casual mass market, plain old flaws) using the argument "hey it's not bad, it's just too hardcore for you".
Another problem with these forums (and I've been guilty of this myself, hence no mocking putdowns here lol...) is that people don't take into account that many are posting to address one point and/or using a term in a broader sense.
So, in this context, to save you the rageface, try putting aside what people are SAYING on the surface and try to understand what they actually MEAN. People are arguing for an idealised vision of the game, one that intersects with the developers stated goals and their own. Some call this 'hardcore' - if you are a min/maxer leet player then you will take offense at the use of this term in this way - so just replace it in your head with "softcore" and you might hear their actual intent. Now, further to that intent thing and trying to read with comprehension I did not just say that if you disagree then you must be a hardcore snob. I was making an example from other arguments raised (I thought I should make this clear based on your current kneejerk reaction).
If you calm down a bit you might see that what people are arguing for is a purity of design - and yes, it is necessarily arbitrary, in the end, because they are only assuming that their ideal vision of the game aligns with what GGG's original goals are - but that intent is what I support.
I don't support objective flaws either. If you want to engage in a discussion with me, put down the scattergun and assume that I'm not the sort of idiot who would say "we don't need any feedback GTFO". We might both learn something!
I think some people in this community are legitimately delusional. There's no other answer.
They don't make the game easier - just stupider. I don't want to play a game to have maths thrust in my face - I'm happy to dig for that stuff and 'math' away in the background but numbers on my screen is the dumbest ass idea ever. Go play asian games if you want to have the bare mechanics thrust in your face so obviously.
I don't know if you have played this game or what, but it is literally all math right now at the highest level, where this would be most applicable. It would be toggle-able anyway. It'd do nothing but give you information you'd normally just google or spreadsheet for.
Obviously I haven't played this game.
"It'd do nothing but..." is wrong, clearly. One other thing that it would do is clutter the screen and detract from the visual aesthetic. inb4 'just make it an option' - I answered that above.
Fools like me, however, respond to the sensible intent behind threads like this, not the foolish, surface-level posturing. Of course one should not reject reasoned arguments but one should also not make all the changes - even the reasonable ones - just because it will appeal to the mass market.
There IS a valid and sensible reason to create a niche product and it is clear - to some of us, at least - that GGG's intended goal with PoE was more niche than perhaps has been publicly communicated.
Who is talking about the mass market? That's a problem that is quite prolific with peoples reasoning on these forums; it's very often centered around a false dichotomy, either the game is "OMG SUPAR HARDCORE!" or it's "lol scrubmode D3 level of casual fail" and anything that doesn't line up with the narrow, arbitrary, subjective view of what constitutes "hardcore", is instantly relegated to the "lol casual D3 fail" category. I'm really quite convinced that many of the people on this forum are so desperate to preserve some ideal they have of a "hardcore game", that whatever GGG actually thinks is irrelevant, and they will even defend even objective flaws (not flaws to a casual mass market, plain old flaws) using the argument "hey it's not bad, it's just too hardcore for you".
Another problem with these forums (and I've been guilty of this myself, hence no mocking putdowns here lol...) is that people don't take into account that many are posting to address one point and/or using a term in a broader sense.
So, in this context, to save you the rageface, try putting aside what people are SAYING on the surface and try to understand what they actually MEAN. People are arguing for an idealised vision of the game, one that intersects with the developers stated goals and their own. Some call this 'hardcore' - if you are a min/maxer leet player then you will take offense at the use of this term in this way - so just replace it in your head with "softcore" and you might hear their actual intent. Now, further to that intent thing and trying to read with comprehension I did not just say that if you disagree then you must be a hardcore snob. I was making an example from other arguments raised (I thought I should make this clear based on your current kneejerk reaction).
If you calm down a bit you might see that what people are arguing for is a purity of design - and yes, it is necessarily arbitrary, in the end, because they are only assuming that their ideal vision of the game aligns with what GGG's original goals are - but that intent is what I support.
I don't support objective flaws either. If you want to engage in a discussion with me, put down the scattergun and assume that I'm not the sort of idiot who would say "we don't need any feedback GTFO". We might both learn something!
I don't at all consider you to be one of those "go back to D3" people, I've seen you post enough to know better, so I'm sorry if that's how it seemed. I just get irritated by how much hand waving goes on sometimes in regards to this games flaws and shortcomings; complaints are too often dismissed using the reasoning that it's just hardcore and therefore untouchable.
Alteration Orb Union Local #7
"Alts are 16:1 Chaos. You got that tough guy?
Last edited by Obsidus#7533 on May 2, 2013, 11:29:35 PM
