GGG do not give in to the crying masses

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mkmaddage wrote:

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BRavich wrote:

I will never understand how people manage to convince themselves that something as trivial as having the option to turn on floating damage numbers somehow diminishes the value of the game.

It's not about 'convincing themselves' - it's a very valid point of view to do with a 'pure vision' that I have never been able to explain adequately enough but am more than willing to try (again) if anyone can actually discuss it objectively. I just don't think it's necessarily that important as I have no idea what the devs think on this and their reasoning for it i.e. they may well think it is totally fine to provide the option.

I'd love to hear. With something like loot options, I can understand why someone would feel strongly about it, though I dont think that's a good reason to keep people from playing the game the way they want to, as GGG is essentially basing their business model on people wanting to play with other people.

WIth floating damage numbers, how could it possibly affect gameplay in any significant manner?

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BRavich wrote:

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mkmaddage wrote:

"

BRavich wrote:

I will never understand how people manage to convince themselves that something as trivial as having the option to turn on floating damage numbers somehow diminishes the value of the game.

It's not about 'convincing themselves' - it's a very valid point of view to do with a 'pure vision' that I have never been able to explain adequately enough but am more than willing to try (again) if anyone can actually discuss it objectively. I just don't think it's necessarily that important as I have no idea what the devs think on this and their reasoning for it i.e. they may well think it is totally fine to provide the option.

I'd love to hear. With something like loot options, I can understand why someone would feel strongly about it, though I dont think that's a good reason to keep people from playing the game the way they want to, as GGG is essentially basing their business model on people wanting to play with other people.

WIth floating damage numbers, how could it possibly affect gameplay in any significant manner?

Well you'd probably get a lot of players that then try to do everything perfectly and the player base might end up being segregated with those that use damage number visibility to optimize their gameplay with science and maths and those that just play for fun and hope they make progress (the former looking down on the latter).

Kinda like how hardcore players currently look down at Default League players for no real reason. It would simply change how players interact with each other and likely for the worse.

Oh also players that use damage numbers to perfect their gear and skills etc., if such players become prominent enough then they can influence GGG's balance decisions to optimize game balance for perfectionists.

Oh and perfectionists can more easily become perfect and obliterate competitive players in the market.

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Nicholas_Steel wrote:

Well you'd probably get a lot of players that then try to do everything perfectly and the player base might end up being segregated with those that use damage number visibility to optimize their gameplay with science and maths and those that just play for fun and hope they make progress (the former looking down on the latter).

Kinda like how hardcore players currently look down at Default League players for no real reason. It would simply change how players interact with each other and likely for the worse.

Oh also players that use damage numbers to perfect their gear and skills etc., if such players become prominent enough then they can influence GGG's balance decisions to optimize game balance for perfectionists.

Oh and perfectionists can more easily become perfect and obliterate competitive players in the market.

I don't see why bad players should be encouraged to stay bad, especially in a multiplayer context. If you party with a newbie, and he does low DPS, you can just politely direct him to a proper build. Yes there are angry morons out there, but that's inevitable. Floating combat text is just so... you know... a modern facility :\ Turn it off, if it's bad for you. Don' party, if you don't like, and so on.

BTW, in a game such as WoW, there is nobody that I know who is not using combat text. It's so useful and everybody loves it. Simple as that.

Did I mention you get to see that you actually hit for double damage when you get a new awesome piece of gear? That you see your huge crits? Pff. What an amazing feeling, instead of being left wondering... "Hmmm... I think that zombie has 1000 HP... and I maybe hit for 400... or 500... or 1000? But meh... I actually must take out the Excel sheet to find out for sure." That's just lame. The game should offer enough features for you to not have to stop playing and go in detailed calculus just to find out how your build is performing.

Usability is key in game design.

The usefullness of FCT depends on the build really. For most of the builds I played in D3, it was just visual clutter that couldn't tell me anything because there were so many fucking numbers everywhere.

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Evlesoa wrote:

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Valmar wrote:

Please don't let it happen, GGG. Resist and let this game remains like it was in close beta.

This game is SO far from what CB was. What it is now is not even remotely close. It's a mess. You don't know what you're talking about. Clearly you haven't played CB.

Yeah, the game itself is substantially better than in CB in almost every aspect. But people change, the community changes, and nostalgia glasses get whipped out.

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Undon3 wrote:

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Nicholas_Steel wrote:

Well you'd probably get a lot of players that then try to do everything perfectly and the player base might end up being segregated with those that use damage number visibility to optimize their gameplay with science and maths and those that just play for fun and hope they make progress (the former looking down on the latter).

Kinda like how hardcore players currently look down at Default League players for no real reason. It would simply change how players interact with each other and likely for the worse.

Oh also players that use damage numbers to perfect their gear and skills etc., if such players become prominent enough then they can influence GGG's balance decisions to optimize game balance for perfectionists.

Oh and perfectionists can more easily become perfect and obliterate competitive players in the market.

I don't see why bad players should be encouraged to stay bad, especially in a multiplayer context. If you party with a newbie, and he does low DPS, you can just politely direct him to a proper build. Yes there are angry morons out there, but that's inevitable. Floating combat text is just so... you know... a modern facility :\ Turn it off, if it's bad for you. Don' party, if you don't like, and so on.

BTW, in a game such as WoW, there is nobody that I know who is not using combat text. It's so useful and everybody loves it. Simple as that.

Did I mention you get to see that you actually hit for double damage when you get a new awesome piece of gear? That you see your huge crits? Pff. What an amazing feeling, instead of being left wondering... "Hmmm... I think that zombie has 1000 HP... and I maybe hit for 400... or 500... or 1000? But meh... I actually must take out the Excel sheet to find out for sure." That's just lame. The game should offer enough features for you to not have to stop playing and go in detailed calculus just to find out how your build is performing.

Usability is key in game design.

I'm all for visible combat text, I was just pointing out some of the negatives it can bring with it. Also at the moment I merely simplify damage output and by that I mean instead of working out damage numbers I just think "Woo, took 3 hits to kill that enemy instead of the usual 5 hits". But yeah I do understand and enjoy seeing just how much my damage increases as I find new gear.

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aimlessgun wrote:

The usefullness of FCT depends on the build really. For most of the builds I played in D3, it was just visual clutter that couldn't tell me anything because there were so many fucking numbers everywhere.

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Evlesoa wrote:

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Valmar wrote:

Please don't let it happen, GGG. Resist and let this game remains like it was in close beta.

This game is SO far from what CB was. What it is now is not even remotely close. It's a mess. You don't know what you're talking about. Clearly you haven't played CB.

Yeah, the game itself is substantially better than in CB in almost every aspect. But people change, the community changes, and nostalgia glasses get whipped out.

In total I would agree its better.

Portions of it though were better in CB. Ridiculously easy example: Chat channels (something which would be unable to be done in todays climate)

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aimlessgun wrote:

The usefullness of FCT depends on the build really. For most of the builds I played in D3, it was just visual clutter that couldn't tell me anything because there were so many fucking numbers everywhere.

"

Evlesoa wrote:

"

Valmar wrote:

Please don't let it happen, GGG. Resist and let this game remains like it was in close beta.

This game is SO far from what CB was. What it is now is not even remotely close. It's a mess. You don't know what you're talking about. Clearly you haven't played CB.

Yeah, the game itself is substantially better than in CB in almost every aspect. But people change, the community changes, and nostalgia glasses get whipped out.

Aside from new content, I'm having a hard time pointing to anything that is better now than it was in CB.

Build diversity - Better in CB
-Useable tree nodes - Better in CB
-Melee - Better (re: playable) in CB

Gambling - Better in CB (fewer garbage affices)

Resistances - Better in CB (that is, the resistance penalty is dumb because it puts pressure on almost all gear slots to have particular stats)
-Chaos Damage/Resistance - Better in CB (the resistance penalty to chaos is beyond stupid)

I mean, +ActIII +Uniques is always nice, but all the mechanics changes I can think of have been for the worse.

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Squirrelloid wrote:

Aside from new content, I'm having a hard time pointing to anything that is better now than it was in CB.

Build diversity - Better in CB
-Useable tree nodes - Better in CB

I disagree.

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-Melee - Better (re: playable) in CB

Maybe at certain points? I certainly can't recall a time when melee were close to ranged in power.

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Gambling - Better in CB (fewer garbage affices)

Easier is not always better, as much as I dislike the affixes. For me this is a wash, I just don't care that much.

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Resistances - Better in CB (that is, the resistance penalty is dumb because it puts pressure on almost all gear slots to have particular stats)
-Chaos Damage/Resistance - Better in CB (the resistance penalty to chaos is beyond stupid)

Various parts of the game put pressure on characters to get certain stats. That's what makes gearing interesting. Resist penalties were a way of making resist capping nontrivial, which is good, because letting resist capping be trivial is just bad design and makes itemizing your character more boring. The other option was massively reducing the amounts on the resist mods. One of them had to be chosen.

I don't think chaos should ever have been made resistable, so I agree there.

In any case, probably impossible to see eye to eye on this due to playing during different periods: I generally would play for a month or two then take a break and come back later, and my sense of 'CB' includes experiences from 2011 and the first half of 2012.

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BRavich wrote:

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mkmaddage wrote:

"

BRavich wrote:

I will never understand how people manage to convince themselves that something as trivial as having the option to turn on floating damage numbers somehow diminishes the value of the game.

It's not about 'convincing themselves' - it's a very valid point of view to do with a 'pure vision' that I have never been able to explain adequately enough but am more than willing to try (again) if anyone can actually discuss it objectively. I just don't think it's necessarily that important as I have no idea what the devs think on this and their reasoning for it i.e. they may well think it is totally fine to provide the option.

I'd love to hear. With something like loot options, I can understand why someone would feel strongly about it, though I dont think that's a good reason to keep people from playing the game the way they want to, as GGG is essentially basing their business model on people wanting to play with other people.

WIth floating damage numbers, how could it possibly affect gameplay in any significant manner?

To be clear - anyone who likes floating numbers (and named loot for that reason) is entitled to that preference. I state that obvious point because people seem to think that if you argue against something in one context you are denying them the right to their personal preference or, in fact, to your own preference for that thing in another context.

With floating damage numbers one simple way it affects gameplay is aesthetically. It clutters the screen. Just because it is used in WoW does not mean it is "better". (I was also used to it in WoW.)

Since we all (those of us who are being serious) very likely agree that not every game should be the same and that not everyone likes the same stuff, I assume it all comes down to the next point.

The issue of having it as an option (since that won't affect everyone's view) is related to the purity of the designer's vision - which is a much lengthier discussion. As I said, always happy to have that discussion but I'm not sure that it's relevant as the designers may very well end up providing the option (given that they've spoken of doing the same with loot allocation).

In other words, perhaps if you hold out for a while the option will be made available to you.

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aimlessgun wrote:

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Squirrelloid wrote:

Aside from new content, I'm having a hard time pointing to anything that is better now than it was in CB.

Build diversity - Better in CB
-Useable tree nodes - Better in CB

I disagree.

Based on what? There literally were more viable builds in CB (circa summer 2012) than there are now, because path of life nodes wasn't required to just play the game.

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-Melee - Better (re: playable) in CB

Maybe at certain points? I certainly can't recall a time when melee were close to ranged in power.

'Close to ranged in performance' and 'playable melee options' are not the same thing.

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Gambling - Better in CB (fewer garbage affices)

Easier is not always better, as much as I dislike the affixes. For me this is a wash, I just don't care that much.

Gambling was still stupid hard to get good gear. Putting more affices in teh pool which are total garbage was completely uncalled for.

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Resistances - Better in CB (that is, the resistance penalty is dumb because it puts pressure on almost all gear slots to have particular stats)
-Chaos Damage/Resistance - Better in CB (the resistance penalty to chaos is beyond stupid)

Various parts of the game put pressure on characters to get certain stats. That's what makes gearing interesting. Resist penalties were a way of making resist capping nontrivial, which is good, because letting resist capping be trivial is just bad design and makes itemizing your character more boring. The other option was massively reducing the amounts on the resist mods. One of them had to be chosen.

What.

How does 'every piece of gear needs the same 5 stats' in any way "interesting"? Gearing was more interesting before because you could use a wider range of mods. Now every mod that isn't life, a resistance, or a defense enhancer are junk, and only exist to make gear worthless. That's incredibly bland and boring. I can't think of anything that could possibly be *more boring* than that.

Resist capping being trivial let you use your gear to do other things than meet the resistance cap. Letting resist capping be trivial was good design. Making resist capping hard is awful design because it eliminates 99% of affices from the set of playable bonuses.

Seriously, when itemization in Angband is more interesting, you're doing something wrong. (And it is).

If you want parts of the game to put continuous pressure on your itemization, then as you get deeper in the game it should pressure you in *new ways*, not make the old ways harder to meet. (See: Angband itemization. That's the correct way to do it).